Tuesday, October 15, 2019

The Joker And Its Discontents, And Their Discontents

Behold, the other outrage-culture machine at work:


And to think, I almost decided to not bother clicking on this video and its magnificently alluring title when I spotted it earlier in the day. Must've been sixteen hours ago now. Never ran across this YouTuber prior to today, mind you. 

Despite being unaware of the channel's existence, the video came up in the recommendations and had me instinctively go "Oh that looks like it must be worthy of a watch" followed by "Gosh there sure are a crapload of Joker-related videos infiltrating my YouTube page. It's gotten worse in the last few days too. It's really bad today. The undemanded supply never ends! What's going on?!" followed immediately by "Oh crap, it's probably another clickbaity piece of garbage with the uploader capitalizing on the tidal wave of publicity The Joker is receiving right now, and wanting some for himself, aka modern YouTube in a nutshell." (yes, that's exactly what I thought, mind-verbatim).


I'm not done. That last thought-sentence was followed by "...but I don't know that for sure, and there's only one way to find out, and I can't expect me to just not find out. Not finding out would make for unhealthy levels of self-denial and shit" which was followed by "No dumbass, that's exactly how they get you! It's how clickbait works: You don't know, you kinda wanna know, then you really wanna know, then you find out, but by that point it's too late and you've already fed the beast" followed by "Yeah, I'm/you're absolutely right, I'll avoid it. It's probably as bad as I'm suspecting. Off I go...".

And this was followed, a few minutes later, by the thought-sentence "Meh, it's one extra click. Contributing an extra click won't make or break the beast" followed by "Where have I heard that one before?" followed by "Well, you did upload that highly informative video back in mid 2017 about the probabilistic insignificance of each person's individual vote, especially when the vote is being cast in national or presidential elections, with millions of voters participating". 

Part of me wasn't about to give in, and so, that was followed by "Nah that was a little different, even though both themes do overlap substantially with the Sorties Paradox. And besides, subsequent exposure to some philosophical faggots sufficed in convincing me that the anti-voting argument I relied on in that video rested on a shaky theory of intentionality and could be dispensed with, with relative ease". (it's a thought, you see, meaning you're not allowed to think less of me or to give me a hard time over my use of faggot, unless you're prepared to (1) believe that even thinking the word faggot earns the thought-agent a hefty dose of disapprobation, (2) ask me to exclude the word faggot and thus relay these thoughts with modest levels of inexactitude, or (3) want me to write phaggot instead of faggot. I can certainly do that last one, seeing as that captures the non-homophobic spirit in which I thought-called them faggots anyway. I mean phaggots.

Okay then, to cut a long thought-process short: turns out I failed to avoid clicking on the embedded video, even though I knew full well that ignoring it was the right thing to do. Had I mustered the willpower to Dare to just walk away and not watch it, I could have spent my day more productively, by working on one or more of my draft posts which have been in draft form for what feels like a century now. Or I could have spent the day recording the rare video for the tube, or perhaps learning more about financial markets so that I can invest my savings prudently for once and shave decades off my wage-in-a-cage work-life, like a proper Jew reliably does.

Ah, so I'm pretty sure that that wasn't a thought-sentence, but a real sentence-sentence, and the only extant one of the two.

If I am correct about the majority of my readers being rigid substance monists who ultimately endorse physicalism, that sentence-sentence is the real deal and will surely get me in trouble. But wait a tic, it's not like I used any slurs pertaining to Jews in that sentence, I just implied that Jews on average are superior to non-Jews on average when it comes to investment and the intricacies of contemporary finance, and that's a positive attribute to have! Sure, it can be argued that non-earned income in a world where so many sweat for the bare minimums is ethically dubious. I've argued that myself, but I've also argued that game-theoretical obstacles to absolute moral purity make compromisers of us all, and doubly so for those paying attention to the world at large. The more you see, the more you'll understand that swimming with sharks is a must. At least some of the time. To advance the impartial good.

So unless you want to say that no one should evaluate human behavior and moral agents from the standpoint of interdependent rational choice, it totally can be ethically acceptable to sit back and invest. Frankly, construing it as acceptable is underselling it, provided the investor tacks on the right caveats, such as longstanding involvement with optimally or modestly effective charities. So if anything, that was a deeply pro-semitic remark I made, and anyone inferring something sinister from it is way outta line.

But anyway, I could've spent my time better is the point, and I blew it. And for what? For that stupid, irritating, hypocritical, reverse-outrage-culture video (remember that? the embedded thing? I do! I memba!). What's worse is that I didn't just watch it. I also didn't just read many of the sycophantic comments thoughtlessly praising it while condemning reviewers who belong to The Media. I went further; posting a rather long critique of it. It's sitting on my trusty Community page, which I'll now copy-and-paste here, because it ended up being surprisingly longer than the regular longish write up I reserve for that page, and because I've been wrestling with the notion that it's beyond time for me to resuscitate this blog. Its epic 10 Year anniversary is coming up, and I sorta don't want to have that temporally-induced landmark event be as flat as my YouTube channel was on its 10 Year anniversary. Or do I really care about any of that? Put this way: If a negative thought about a specific thing that bugs you pops into your head approximately twice a month, does it constitute a thing you truly care about? Or would it be more like, the tiniest of abstract nuisances? Probably the latter, but who's counting.


Wait, what?! What the fuck is this?! Why in the cold hell am I writing up an off-the-cuff quicky-style post on a topic I've never contemplated blogging about (DC film, seriously?) before today?! What the shit?! Was I not supposed to bring you all the long awaited Part 3 of this masterpiece series on meta-politics instead?! I originally planned for it to be out in May of this year. Guess I'm running a little late, so it's not going to be as smooth a sequence as the poetic "March is Part 1, April is Part 2, May is Part 3" plan I had such high hopes for.

Moreover, didn't this entire blog come to a screeching halt due to my inability to wrap up Part 3, by which I mean: for me to be content enough with the final version of Part 3 so as to publish it? Didn't I mutter to myself for months "No, you're doing a three parter, remember, and this means you don't get to publish any posts in between the parts, got it? This ain't no fun park carnival, god damn it, it's a blog! A blog that's visited by hundreds of unique visitors per week, on a good week. Dozens on a not-so-good one. Some of these visitors presumably stick around to read up to a quarter of a given post that's on display. So you better straighten up and stay true to that 1-2-3 part formula you decided on back in January of this year, when you began writing Part 1, dammit!"

Actually that wasn't a real mutter, it was another round of thought-sentences, transcribed to perfection right here, right now. Welcome.

Well that was then, and this is now. I've decided to no longer care about sullying the glorious sequence of that terribly complicated three parter on meta-politics. I can paraphrase its impossible Part 3 here anyway: More "yay pragmatism", more "boo structuralism". I mean there's more to it, and it offers some pretty sharp observations, but yeah, that's the gist. I will finish it when I finish it. In the meantime, enjoy my criticism of the abysmal video I embedded (way) above.

If you continue reading from here, you should consider watching that video first. Though that video by that vlogger is just a microcosm, so you might not even need to watch it to proceed, assuming you've seen at least one of the other hundreds of videos making similar arguments against The Media by shamelessly using The Joker as a springboard, or have read at least one of the thousands of comments and articles making similar arguments against The Media by shamelessly using
The Joker as a springboard. It really is a parrot-world out there.


Commence Community post:

So the media needed this particular undismayed film to fail, even though this wasn’t their emotive or cognitive motto when covering countless other culturally undismayed films over the decades, each with their own antihero protagonists and convention-abiding antagonists. Each with their own fist-shaky messages about societal sickness, their identifying the sources/causes of these sicknesses, and in some cases; their offering up pet remedies (to varying degrees of specificity). All widely discussed and reviewed; positively, negatively, indifferently, by media figureheads and toadies, and without suspicions arising from outsiders that The Media needed any of those films to fail, and needed it badly. So what’s different here? Why The Joker, of all things?

Having seen the film, and having suffered through hours upon hours of coverage surrounding its release, I can say firmly that nothing is different here. Not a thing. At least on the Dinosaur Media’s side of things. The alarmist wings are doing their dour thing, as they do, and it’s barely a departure from the norm. The media is often referred to as an empire, and you'd think this framing would cause people who declare themselves as hostile to The Media and as distrustful of The Media to analyze each wing as a distinctive unit (as with Empires). But nope. The video I’m sharing below (to your right?) contains a "for all intents and purposes" style admission of (minimal) variation, but nothing that the vlogger actually incorporates into his thinking or script-writing. Because, for the script and the video to work, and for his massive punch to land in the humongous way he intends, there can be no alarmist vs. non-alarmist wings, reporters, journos, etc within the media landscape. There are only alarmist wings and their pathological contributors. In effect, there's You And Yours vs. Media Critics. And even on that front, as insufferably reductive as it is, his video is still riddled with nonsense.

Recall that Gibson’s 2004 Passion was banned in Israel, and the over-the-top scathing treatment it received in most pockets of North America had me convinced that it was a few degrees shy of being banned here too. That’s one example, off the top of my head, of awful coverage fanning the flames. Could it be said, then, that everybody in The Media, or that large swathes of The Media, felt like they needed TPOTC to fail? Hell no. Some were plainly offended by it, because they're devoutly religious and can't think beyond that. When those (religious) people were also the media insiders, they capitalized on the megaphone they own, or the one they have daily access to, and went on about the wrongness of the film from those pulpits. And when people with this mindset were the media outsiders, the media was there to give them a megaphone, and then to give the other side one too. Some outlets managed to stay neutral, others not so much. Then as now. No difference.

Nay, the difference resides in alt-media’s reaction to traditional media’s predictable coverage, like with this video. For the record, I hate the term alt-media, but screw it, using it here. Guy has an obvious axe to grind, and not grinding it to oddball reviews of The Joker would’ve been a missed opportunity. He even outs his motivated reasoning when he discusses how some barely known outlet tried to do a hit piece on him a while back. So? Why is “X is not a monolith” a perfectly fair point to make in every X vs. Y ordeal not involving The Media, but applied to the media, it becomes inconceivable. Why are truisms treated as anathemas, in this space? 

Did he get specific? He all but sees into the minds of media insiders, so he should get narrower than he is being in his allegations. Are there individual culprits? There must be, unless this is intended to be another “The Flaw Is In The System, Not The People” smokescreen. I doubt that's his conclusion, I'm sure he believes the problem can be pinned on individual people (i.e. Media insiders). So where are the names? If you’re going to make an allegation this damming, you need to name names. Tell viewers something concrete about all the wretched people who apparently believe this and feel this way. How many of them are there? Presumably a lot!

Summary of his video: “They need The Joker to fail, because they’ve profiteered from the victims The Joker shines a light on, and they can't admit their role in creating said victims, because they are twisted inside”. That's the pitch, I’m not exaggerating. But if that's the complaint, flashing a few screenshots of articles criticizing the movie will not do. Quoting nothing from the articles beyond their title/heading will not do. Mentioning “Late Night” talk shows and their snarky nature, will not do. Or does he earnestly believe that Kimmel, Colbert, Fallon, Conan, et al feel that The Joker needs to fail? Like, they feel it in their bones and are threatened by its likely success? These hosts, who chose to have Joaquin Phoenix on for cross-promotional ends. He scratches them, they scratch him. Showbiz 101. Then as now. But now with 100% More Fear!

More hilariously, they’ve routinely run ads for The Joker during their shows’ commercial blocks. (Not sure whether Fallon’s show did, couldn’t even stomach the sight of it to do the tiny bit of research on it to confirm, but I bet it did. I can confirm that the other guys all did. Why run ads for a product you fear? Not a product you merely dislike, not one you merely disagree with or hate... but Fear!).


As of my writing this, over 33K people have upvoted this video. This ridiculous video. If you put a gun to their heads, would a single one of those upvoters answer “Yes” to questions like “Does Jimmy Kimmel, deep down, feel like The Joker needs to fail?”. I don’t think any of them would, and this wouldn’t change if you swapped Jimmy Kimmel's name for the name of any other late night host, or their respective creative team and showrunners.


The point stands when our alleger turns his attention away from TV and toward the press. Just as the late night hosts, executives, showrunners, and creative teams have no negative emotional investment in this, the typical op-ed columnist has no reason whatsoever to feel that The Joker needs to fail either. Surely, indifference has to be the rule here, and hopefulness (for success) has to be the exception. And then, finally, a smaller exception noting a hopefulness for failure can be made. But this brand of hope represents a luxury desire, and is not a need. Nothing here can correctly be depicted as the rule, or as the exception, if it is made out to be a need rather than a want.

The standard op-ed columnist is as much of a media insider as the horrible panicky op-ed critics who wrote about and overreacted to aspects of the film (just as they did 15 years ago with TPOTC, or with The Life Of Brian, and so on). When you Nadir Fallacy the media this persistently, you really do deserve to have your calls to the more general Imprecision Fallacy ignored in other contexts. In a way, you've waived your epistemic rights to cite certain things. There is no shortage of better candidates for that, after all.

People who understand how far-reaching the implications of the Imprecision Fallacy run seem to be rarer than four-leaf clovers. It frustrates me to no end, because it's just so damn rampant. By-the-numbers alt-media has nothing good to show for itself here. And sure, I'm prepared to modify this generalization if I'm shown a few examples of alt-media frontrunners being responsible in their fallacy-regulation. I'm not holding my breath. Had YouTube been around and established in 2004, similar efforts would’ve been made by YouTubers to have spacious narratives spun from the Gibson/TPOTC controversy.

The Joker caused a slightly larger stir within traditional outlets, and even that can be explained by the fact that big screen releases throughout the 2010s provided moviegoers with next-to-nothing in the way of gritty, culturally challenging material (way to not boycott shitty movies, shitty general public) compared to previous decades. Had this decade been more like the 1970s or 1980s in terms of big screen releases, I think many more culture worriers would've been desensitized to these 'dark' themes, and The Joker wouldn't have garnered even those barely higher levels of preemptive panic.


So in conclusion, the embedded video is unserious and arguably disingenuous. Enjoy!


P.S. I just have to @10:09 “…This holistic idea that the only one responsible is the perpetrator themselves, it is wrong…” He thinks holistic is another way of saying holier-than-thou. Ordinarily, I wouldn’t be petty enough to bring attention to something like this, but he has a massive audience, and in my experience “holistic = holy” style confusions are a trend with tubers who amass large followings (somehow). The word he was looking for is ‘individualistic’, which is ironically the opposite of holistic and runs counter to the point he was making. What a clutz.


So yeah, please look up holism if you’re this eager to use it in a sentence.


P.P.S. Holism is dumb and wrong. Its penchant for deindividuation knows no bounds. Apply its teachings to everyday judicial contexts, and you’ll be chugging poison whether you're the defendant or the plaintiff.

P.P.P.S. Popper argued convincingly that it makes for political poison in the broader sense too: https://www.iep.utm.edu/popp-pol/#SH1b

/End of Community post.


Now that you've read it, feel free to (1) commend my patience and brilliance, (2) suggest what other Community posts, if any, you'd like to see converted into semi-serious blog posts like this one.

There are some lengthy posts which I've considered transferring and expanding on, but always decided against doing so at the end of the day, largely due to my nonsensical commitment to never publish stuff I've written haphazardly, along with my nonsensical commitment to preserve the dignity of The Sequence and to neverendingly follow those stubborn drafts to wherever they may lead me. But now I'm thinking fuck that. Nothing wrong with scrapping the old, self-sabotaging method and applying a more stream-of-consciousness friendly approach to my writing. And if I relocate some other posts from the Community page, I'd also incorporate in the transfer my comment exchanges with a handful of smart cookies which I've always found to be worthy of a wider readership.



Relatedly, I've often gone back to read my old posts on this blog (aka all my posts on this blog) only to find myself disappointed in and irked by their overwritten tenor. This never happens when I revisit an old-ish Community post of mine, or a lengthy comment reply I've left to someone. And by never, I mean never; not once. I always reread those with pleasure, unlike with previous blog posts, which range from slightly difficult to put up with, to outright atrocious. Seems that I've only recently come to terms with the fact that my writing is decent, but only under the condition that I go without proofreading, or when I only get to proofread once or twice before hitting publish.

The moment I embark on some misguided Sequence project wherein I allow myself the indulgence of dozens, and at times hundreds, of proofreads a pop, I inevitably end up ruining all that was good in the early stages of the project. I want to change that. I need to change that, and now I've accepted that the only way forward will see me limiting proofreads to one or two rounds a pop. I will never be the type of person who writes readable books, for I seem incapable of improving my nascent texts as the weeks, months and years pass. Time only helps me worsen them.

I also enjoyed rereading the posts I published on Google Plus, back when they were available. Still trying to find those Google archives which I apparently downloaded somewhere prior to the nuking of Google Plus, so if you have any write-ups of mine that you'd like to see morphed and carried over to this medium, it sadly has to be on my Community timeline and no further back. For now.

Oh and if anyone would like to hear my thoughts on The Joker movie proper, and not the silly nontroversy surrounding it, let me know and I'll go over it in the comments or in a separate post. Hmm, guess it would've been appropriate for me to have done some of that in this post, but I've been writing a lot today and am too exhausted to even proofread all of this diligently, let alone to pile on it with additional sentences reviewing a film with the gravitas of The Joker, as that would require yet more proofreading. 

I'll say this much; this marks the best 2019 release that I've seen so far (though that's an embarrassingly short list), and I'd prefer to not say more about it publicly when feeling as mentally drained as I do at this moment.

28 comments:

  1. So suppose that the criticism was valid, and there was a motivation for Joker in particular to fail (or even to cause a tragedy - not sure if the conspiracy goes that far or not -- but I wouldn't be surprised). Still, we should be suspicious of the attempts to scapegoat The Media in particular. Isn't The Media just a reflection of the society's views? At least there should be a recognition of a symbiosis; of how "what people are into/what people are like" partially causes "what the media covers/how it covers it", even if the causation goes both ways. How is that different from vague, sweeping complaints about The Corporations? I know we differ on just how much individual responsibility consumers have, but surely it can't all be pinned down on the supplier. But that's what The Media is: a content supplier. And I doubt that the overlap between consumers of The Media and fans of Joker is insignificant.

    I was planning to ask for your opinion on the movie, and get you to pick one of the following 3 levels of watchability:
    1) Worth spending a few bucks to see in the movies,
    2) Worth watching, but it can wait a few weeks until a 1080p version is torrentable, or
    3) Worth doing something else with my 2 hours instead.

    But reading your last few paragraphs suggests that 1) is the answer. If you have any further analysis of the movie, and the time/energy/motivation, feel free to share your thoughts. If you post a review, I'll read it after I watch the movie, so don't worry about including spoilers.

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    1. I should look for empirical work that deals with your question concerning whether (or to what extent) the views expressed by the MSM on average have traditionally merely mirrored the views of the viewers on average. I doubt it's the case right now, given how fractured "the viewers" have become, and not just because of the influence of online "alt-media" and stuff.

      But I'm preoccupied with more important questions and research tasks, and am probably lazier than I'd like to believe, so I probably won't do the work it takes to find out. But if you know of any such work, share away.

      I've long wondered if overuse of "corporations" or "boo corporations" stems from a lack of education on what's a corporation vs. ordinary firm vs. small business. I know that whenever I see commenters spouting "corporatism", the context of their comment suggests they're totally unaware of, or don't have the ins/outs of, any this in mind:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism#Politics_and_political_economy

      And now, a terribly belated answer to your 1 vs. 2 vs. 3 question, because I don't check the blog as often as I should:

      1. Definitely worth it for me, but not for anyone whose income sees them living at or near the level of subsistence.

      But also: I hadn't been to the cinema at all in 2019 prior to this, so it was a welcome change.

      I want to rewatch The Joker, actually, before offering any specific or non-stylistic thoughts on it. I don't consider myself a polished enough movie buff to feel competent reviewing something after only seeing it once. There have been many instances where I'd see a film once, get nothing out of it, or absolutely loathe it (i.e. Kill Bill), then return to it years later, be intrigued enough to give it multiple viewings, and by the end of it, I'm raving about it.

      But stylistically, I rate The Joker 10/10, namely for its spot-on early 80s visual depictions of America. Guess I'm a mark for that type of "this is how it was then" visually-heavy stuff. There's probably a technical term for it, but like I said, I fear myself more of a cinema philistine than sophisticate.

      Delete
  2. So I watched Joker with my dad and his wife. I was, and still am, really disappointed at the "this was nothing but propaganda of violence" regurgitated remarks, and "people are going to become violent after watching this" kind of hysteria. I do this to myself every time. I get disappointed by my family members' "positions", I tell myself to lower my standards, I forget and hope to hear something interesting or at least not overtly stupid, and I get disappointed again. Dad: "Leather jackets don't keep you warm. In fact, leather keeps you colder than you would've been without it".
    Me, partly being too tired to start an argument and partly trolling: "Well, it's faux leather, so it should be fine".
    Dad's wife: "That's even worse. It'll develop cracks unlike real leather".

    But the movie was good and very much worth seeing in the movies. I'd give it a 8/10 overall. It's not 10/10 because there was a lot of hype around it, and I had high expectations, some of which weren't satisfied. The style was great, I agree. Acting was too. But I guess I didn't fully identify with Joker, and only saw some of his actions as justified. But more importantly, I think most people will take from this film the attitude that "this is what happens when the society fails people". I think that misses the the nature part of the equation, and comes dangerously close to the "illness is socially constructed" view.

    A couple of things were confusing and unrealistic and unnecessary, like the "kill the rich" riots. Also, I facepalmed a little at the "omg I'm adopted, so I'm going to have a breakdown" cliche. They didn't need to include this childish crap: the case for Joker's being unfortunate was already strong enough.

    This is as good a place as any to bring this up, but I recently watched another movie that you mentioned: Office Space. I've never seen it until then. Holy shіt... That was the best thing I've seen this year, and a solid top-10 movie for me now. It's so sincere and accurate in respect to work culture that it's scary, in a good way. It also made me think about authenticity, and how people come to embrace it. It's a rare trait but you have it: so I'm curious, did something happen to you to cause it, like a burnout? Or were you always like that?

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    1. Gotta rewatch Office Space. I hate my job with about 30-40% more passion now than I did when I first saw Office Space in 2015/2016. Another top-notch thing that I've seen only once.

      Taken aback a bit by the authenticity stuff. You think I'm in possession of much more authenticity than... the average person? If so, low bar. Most decent bloggers/writers and even content creators we follow online seem to possess it in higher droves as well. If you meant I exhibit above-average authenticity within the confines of this heightened (online) standard of measure, I appreciate the compliment, but I'm not sure it holds. Consider all the public intellectuals you follow/read/watch and for good reason.

      Ordinary exhibitionists are partially inauthentic because they post curated versions of their "fun lives" and social prestige conquests on FB/Insta/etc.

      I'm probably partially inauthentic because I post curated versions of my cognitive processes, intellectual interests, epistemic virtues and exaggerate my love of steel manning everything under the sun. But you're never really allowed to see my authentic desire to respond to a Joe Rogan motivational video simply because it'd be fun to shoot fish in a barrel. I titled a video "Beware Of Things That Are Fun To Argue" but at least half my internet time is spent not following my own advice, and I rarely if ever advertise my not always following it. No one sees the craving for gotchas, the flops and scrapped dead-end drafts. I doubt this is in keeping with being 100% non-exhibitionistic. Plus no one sees how often I resist the temptation to rant about something for no reason other than "a bunch of people already covered that and I kinda feel like I should stand out". I conceal much in the way of 'Culture War' passions, in the name of novelty. But I guess admitting this now does circle back to authenticity after all. But then was this very admission just as calculated? Messy stuff, this authenticity.

      "did something happen to you to cause it, like a burnout? Or were you always like that?"

      For as long as I can recall, I've felt a strong revulsion whenever I'd be exposed to people who go along to get along, people who are terrified of being socially shunned or ignored, people desperate for ordinary popularity. Mind you, it's no modest dislike, but a deep sense of disgust and hatred. I have no idea what caused me to react to status-seeking in this way. It may have been baked into my psyche from the start, or it may have been some traumatic one-off incident from toddlerhood that I'm unable to remember or pin down on a conscious level. Either way, I can't help feeling that it's characterologically good to feel such revulsion, regardless of who you are. If nothing else, such a reactive attitude would diminish or destroy the career prospects of self-help shysters and demagogues, and that alone should be worth the price of admission.

      But does it blend with authenticity per se? Maybe one branch of it. There are so many branches.

      I hate breaking up these comments into parts. Wish it had an automatic character count so I don't have to copy it over elsewhere just to know how much I can squeeze in before hitting publish and starting with the next one.

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  3. "I think most people will take from this film the attitude that "this is what happens when the society fails people". I think that misses the the nature part of the equation, and comes dangerously close to the "illness is socially constructed" view."

    Exactly.

    "I facepalmed a little at the "omg I'm adopted, so I'm going to have a breakdown" cliche."

    Oh man, you know I didn't even catch that until I read your comments? Talk about throwing in the psychological towel. That cliché has been a pet peeve of mine going back decades. But I guess I'm so resolved to see it never go away, I've acclimated to it to the point where it's no longer an identifiable pet peeve until I see someone remind me that this is how I've always viewed it. Will try to keep count of these types of omissions from here on out.

    Shitty Cultural Norms = 1
    My Better Judgment In Real Time = 0

    Okay so we know about the spin from the gamer guy in the embedded video. It's all too common and it's not going away and I shouldn't have bothered.

    I feel filthy for spreading this in any way, but if you're interested, here's a differently awful spin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PAVr4V1suY

    For the most part, the commentary is just there; neither conspiratorial nor insightful. I should have marked the minutes containing the truly bad part that stuck out for me. It was near the end, somewhere in the final fifth of the video. While he's glad to see a big screen release where class struggle and mental health issues are core themes, he still calls it out for coming up short when looked at from the intersectionalistic grading scale. (Yes, I'm aware of how ridiculous the term looks when stretched out into 'intersectionalistic'. That's the point; it deserves to look ridiculous. The appearance should match the substance)

    Wish I had the exact quote, but I'm not re-watching/re-clicking the video now just to quote him properly. All you need to know is: he makes his intersectionalistic point while panning to scenes with non-whites (usually headshots) from the film. I guess non-white characters not serving as receptacles for showcasing institutionalized racism in early 80s America is some kind of pol-adjusted Cinema Sin in his mind. It's so inane: Anytime a disadvantaged or oppressed character is around, the film ought to shoehorn their oppression into the dialogue or hell, maybe even the plot. Say what you will about vegans, but even the strictest of them don't criticize "Babe" for failing to grapple with the monstrosity of factory farming. And the whole thing revolved around the pig too! (Maybe some vegans have made this criticism, but the way I see it; if I've never been exposed to it, given how long it's been since the release of Babe, while the intersectionalistic pro-shoehorning demands are hard-to-miss for brand new films, or in this case, those which have been out for under a month... then my counterpoint stands)

    Anyway. Not a single negative comment about his "can't talk about X without also talking about Y" observation. Maybe I didn't read enough, but judging by the ratings, I don't need to read more. They eat it up. Another awful upload with momentum.

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    1. "Taken aback a bit by the authenticity stuff"
      Really? Didn't expect that part to be controversial. I'll just respond to that, as your second part makes sense and I don't have much to add to that.

      I follow/read/watch a bunch of people, but it's hard to tell if they're authentic in real life, which is the hard part. It's easier to be authentic in front of a webcam than in an office environment. And I might be wrong, but I get the sense that you're pretty much the same online and offline. Besides, I rarely, if ever, converse with other online personas, so I really don't know. But I would guess that you'd rank very high, even given that standard.

      But you tell me: do you lose much sleep due to worrying what other people think of you? Whatever your answer is, I would bet that Sam Harris loses more. You can just feel how much the man cares what Reza Aslan or Omer Aziz etc think of him. Superficially, he's rebellious, but deep down he's all about reputation. Never got that vibe from you. In fact, you come off precisely averse to flattery and fandom, and you know that's not a common thing even among online people. You complain about that! Also, you systematically shoot down compliments, kinda like you're doing right now, which I guess is not unique, but it's rare enough to notice it.

      Also, didn't you get asked that "what do you see yourself doing in 5 years?" question at a job interview, and implied that you're not particularly enthusiastic about working the same job/company? I'd be surprised if 1% of people could pull that off.

      "you're never really allowed to see my authentic desire to respond to a Joe Rogan motivational video simply because it'd be fun to shoot fish in a barrel"
      I'd just disagree with this one. I think you expose yourself going for the low hanging fruit enough. I wouldn't be surprised if that occupies like 30-50% of your Community page, much like it did on G+. I also wouldn't consider downplaying that as inauthentic: another perfecty valid explanation is that 1) you aspire to target and post higher quality content, which is true, and 2) that low quality rebuttals are less worthy of being posted, which you also probably think.

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    2. On second thought, I'll say something about "can't talk about X without also talking about Y" attitude.

      There was an episode of Rationally Speaking where Julia suggested that many of the disagreements stem from these two fundamental approaches. There are decouplers, and there are non-decouplers (there's got to be a better word... couplers? holists? zombies?).

      She was, like always, super charitable and respectful, which almost gave the impression that "to decouple or not to decouple" is a matter of style or personality or something. I think there has to be a lot more pushback against this kind of equivalence. Decoupling is just correct, and the opposition is just wrong, and it doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

      I'll go ahead and make a general principle that for any issue X, you can talk about it without also muddying the water by bringing in an issue Y. This is true (surprise! not really) even if X and Y are currently happening simultaneously. Chances are that X has occurred both with and without Y. And of course you can make a good case that X is more likely if Y is true, but that's way different from pretending that X and Y are necessarily tied at the hip.

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    3. "in front of a webcam"

      Something like 25-35% of this authenticity from me ends up on the cutting room floor though. That implies nothing?

      But since you never alluded to my being perfectly authentic, I should just learn to take the damn compliment and bask in it. As with most things, authenticity/inauthenticity should be treated as a spectrum, and I guess all you're saying is "If some trailblazing social psychologist came up with an ultra-rigorous sufficientarian threshold for authenticity, ABM would pass it and then some". And I'll accept that.

      "I would bet that Sam Harris loses more."

      Impossible comparison. Harris knows how it feels to have tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people trash him (his moral and intellectual character) within a narrow space of time due to this or that widespread (mis)interpretation, often at the hands of antagonistic talking-heads deliberately "leading the audience" against the magnanimous interpretations and readings. Put me in that position and I'd be far from easygoing about it. I'd punch holes through walls.

      I actually already have, years ago, and that was just from having had a larger pool of commenters (which traffics in a larger share of combative arguers) being relentlessly active in my threads.

      But it doesn't even have to be on my turf; Inmendham's turds talking trash on his turf was also enough to rile me up, especially considering how ill-informed they were about my points and how credulous they were with his shitty counters.

      If anything, I'd say Harris is not proactive enough in getting all those people to see things his way. Take this podcast and its aftermath: https://podcastnotes.org/2019/11/18/sam-harris-eric-weinstein-portal/

      Threads exploded with Seder's cheerleaders daring SH to Debate-Seder-Brah. You-Afraid-Of-My-Pol-Guru-Brah?

      SH ignored all this. He's also ignoring their incessant demands to list the specific lies/distortions of his positions which Seder (though mostly Brooks) is responsible for. If I had been SH in this situation, I'd make a 5 hour podcast going over everything, as far back as 2013. I'd do it even if I received dozens of challenges. Harris received hundreds, potentially thousands, and didn't bite. Pretty chill if you ask me. So if that's the standard, I'm definitely worse.

      But the standard is more multifaceted.

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    4. If everyone were to vote on who is the "Nicest, most charitable, highly opinionated person in the history of the internet" I'm pretty sure Julia Galef would win in a landslide.

      Something I never see about the X and the Y and the oh-so eclectic recognitions of interconnectedness by puzzle-piece-fitters: "You can't talk about Maoist ideological purges without also talking about Stalinist ideological purges". But more pointedly, and in positive terms: "You can't warmly embrace diversity and inclusivity without also embracing the doctrine of reasonable pluralism, which cuts across the spectrum and encompasses worldviews we're allergic to". See *there* it almost makes sense.

      "couplers? holists? zombies?"

      Well intersectionality did get the ball rolling, so they'll always be that to me. Maybe we can get creative. How about: the inter-sects?

      I'd go with 'connectivists' but last I checked, connectivism is already a thing. A techno-adjusted theory of education, as I recall.

      I liked 'wokies' for a while there, earlier this year, but now it's been used to death and even made into an ism (search "Wokeism vs. Trumpism"). I want no part of it anymore.

      I'm also beginning to think that holism is too bound up with G.E. Moore's theory of the good to use it in the way Popper often did. Maybe calling it 'policy holism' will serve as enough of a clarifier. When you critique their approach to policies from the get-go (rather than, say, the narratives which they understand as being prior to the policies), it stands to do beneficial damage to their thought-patterns.

      Do away with the idea that policy-sets form coherent wholes and I'm confident that the worst ideological fogs will dissipate. By this I mean; do away with the idea that there exists an optimally progressive policy bundle that's internally consistent, an optimally centrist policy bundle that's internally consistent, an optimally conservative policy bundle that's internally consistent, etc. Like so: "Optimal progressivism is composed of *insert number* of policies in America". Absent this, making a fuss over who is or isn't a "true liberal" or "real conservative" is noise-over-signal yet again.

      If any such bundle existed even in theory, you'd think its composites would have been named and outlined one-by-one at some point over the centuries, with popular consensus backing it at least once. Or meticulously tallied up by number, with popular consensus backing it at least once.

      This is not how it works, of course. How it works: I'm here to express myself. If I can look like I'm being analytically crisp while doing it, that's a bonus. Just as long as I get to keep saying things like "Not My President" or "Proud wearer of MAGA merch", we're good.

      We know about expressivism in metaethics, but have you seen anyone apply it to pol? Worse than policy holists are the political expressivists. If I were in the joke-making world, this is where I'd say something like "You can't talk about policy holism without also talking about political expressivism". Guess it's too late to say "but I'll resist the urge to do so".

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    5. The SH comparison was a stretch, but I might as well stick to it now that I've made it. Two more points before I stop beating a dead horse on my end:

      1) in absolute numbers, of course Harris has more uninformed haters and misconstruers. But he also has hundreds of thousands of hungry fans who are just as willing to gobble up his views as his haters are to dismiss them. I'd guess that from the people who know of him, 3/4 are supporters of some sort. What share of your encounters on the internet were supportive/positive?

      2) I have little doubt that SH is less angry and more mindful than you. I mean the man is like meditation guru almost as much as he is a philosopher, and I'm being charitable right now. So you didn't need to confess about the wall lol, but it's good to know.


      I actually look up to those chill characteristics of SH, more so a few years ago than I do now now. Insofar as those things are virtues, SH gets a point in favor. But I see zero, or even a slight negative correlation between impatience/reactiveness/anger and inauthenticity.

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    6. Oh, and I forgot to ask, regarding the SH situation I described; there's a chance we disagree over why he ignores these calls to cover the distortions of the likes of SS/MB. I believe it's because he doesn't care enough about their audiences to put in the effort, or doesn't see those audiences as being minimally corrigible about him at this stage in the game. Even so, had I been in SH's position, even if I believed all this about those audiences, I'd still make the 5 hour podcast. Knowing what I know about belief, there's *that part of them* that will always second-guess themselves *as they're listening to the podcast*. If not that, I'd be tempted to record the podcast due to my lack of absolute certainty that All Of Them fail on the minimally corrigible front. If there's a lowly 5% chance that they are amendable, that a small subset of them is amendable, that would be enough for me to do a deep dive going over the claims of SS/MB.

      I could fill up an hour just critiquing their glaringly click-baity video titles, setting the stage for the disingenuousness that follows.

      But you may have an altogether different sense of why SH has been unwilling to record such a podcast. The SS/MB crowd insists it's because SH is incapable of defending himself against their claims. As in; he'd be totally stumped once their content is actually played by him during his podcast. I'm not sure whether this figures into your explanation of why he has avoided recording a response.

      If SH is (1) perfectly capable of dispensing with their hatchet-jobs, line by line, and (2) heavily invested in reputational management, it does seem weird that he hasn't done so, given their (now) large platform.

      It doesn't seem that weird to me, of course, because I deny (2) in the sense that I don't think SH is *as* invested in rep for rep's sake, as you do.

      Force my hand and I'll guess that it's roughly 50/50. As in, it's as self-regarding as it is other-regarding. I think he genuinely believes that the battle of ideas in "the marketplace of ideas" determines, in large part, the goodness and badness of outcomes. He promotes good ideas, so damaging him amounts to damaging prospects for good/better outcomes in society at large or even the world at large.

      I think that's cartoonish. The quality of outcomes (even near-term ones) is determined by so many visible and invisible factors, and "quality of ideas" or "quality of internet ideas branching out into meatspace" is at the bottom of that scrambled, messy list.

      Dammit, this was supposed to be a short comment. Two paragraphs at most.

      Me and brevity, oil and water...

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    7. "What share of your encounters on the internet were supportive/positive?"

      Before the 2016 Election cycle went into full swing? About 80/90% were pro SH encounters, 10/20% were "boo SH" encounters. During the cycle and shortly after it? Hard to tell. And right now, it's still hard to tell. I lurked his cesspool twitter feed more often in 2016/2017/2018 than I do these days.

      Update: Just checked it out now, and he shared a NYT opinion piece the other day. The response? 60/70% "boo SH, boo NYT" by maga-tards and maga-sympathizers. So it's pretty bad if you zero in on that, or at least if you judge encounters by exposing yourself to those who are the most vocal in the epistemically unholy land that is the twitter-verse.

      I didn't punch a hole through the wall by the way. It was the coffee table. Not saying I never hurt the wall. I merely dented it by throwing an old phone against it, in full force. See, that's not as bad kinda.

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    8. Oh, I was asking about your encounters online with commenters and/or content creators. I was trying to make a point that while SH gets more pushback than you in absolute terms, it's more than balanced out by his army of loyal supporters. So I'm less impressed than you with his ability to withstand criticism.

      Re: why he ignores Seder et al. First, I'd be surprised if he's even aware of the channel and people you're referring to. Second, if he is, you're probably right that he doesn't care enough for their audiences. I can imagine some other boring reasons why I wouldn't respond to them if I was SH: 3) being busy, as he certainly is, and 4) really not looking forward to having an unpleasant conversation like that. I can definitely emphasize with the last one. I think SH has a low tolerance for particularly bad ideas and styles of argument. Remember that podcast he did and named either the best or the worst podcast ever? It was pretty long, but if you sum up all the segments of his future podcasts where he complained about how horrible it was, and how much he regrets getting into it, and what a waste of time it was, that might well add up to a longer duration than the podcast itself. Ok maybe not longer, but long enough to support my point.

      More importantly: say he uploads that 5hr podcast, exactly as you describe, tomorrow. How much would you update your 50-50 guesstimate about his being motivated by reputation vs by a desire to dismantle bad ideas? I'd be surprised if you update it by more than 5%, if at all. Apologies if I'm wrong as I put words in your mouth, but I have to anticipate your response so as to finish my argument. So if this evidence wouldn't count very strongly in favor of his being a reputation whore (which I agree with your hypothetical response that it wouldn't), the absence of this evidence shouldn't count very strongly against the hypothesis. But ok, given that there's many noticeable critics he ignores, I'll take my confidence down 5%, from 80% reputation to 75%. And it's not just the ignoring of attacks, but also that I'm starting to feel uncomfortable and guilty for essentially pretenting I can read his mind.

      "See, that's not as bad kinda." For the record, I don't think anger is so bad, as long as it's just insentient objects you're damaging of course. I once knew someone who was embarrassed for getting angry and throwing something across the room (I guess "losing control" was seen as a weakness?), but I never saw it that way. Well, I might as well confess something too: I did piss her off because I contemplated throwing away old clothes instead of walking a couple blocks to put them in a donation bin. Now THAT amount of shittiness from me is embarrassing. The angry reaction was benign, if not warranted.

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    9. Speaking of getting more out of a movie on a second attempt, I just re-watched Taxi Driver (1976) and absolutely loved it. I have no idea why I rated it 4/10 the first time. Either I was a lot less mature, or I was in a weird frame of mind that I no longer identify with. Or both. The first time I saw it was only 2 years ago, in Sep 2017 (thanks IMDb)... I don't remember most of the movie, so perhaps I was unfocused and thinking about other stuff. This time, it's a solid 10/10, both stylistically and substantively. I think that if you liked the aesthetics of Joker, you would really enjoy Taxi Driver. My hunch is that you've already seen it, but it doesn't hurt to suggest it.

      The reason I gave it another shot was getting a YT recommendation titled "Why Taxi Driver Is The Ultimate Doomer Movie", which reveals the kinds of videos I've been watching lately... The recommended video itself is also good, tho I didn't watch it that carefully.

      But what's interesting is that Taxi Driver resembled Joker on many levels. Why did I like it so much more? But most importantly, I realized I was probably unfairly critical of Joker, and you were right that it's a kind of movie that warrants a re-watch (I didn't think it was worth it at first).

      Re: "Nicest, most charitable, highly opinionated person in the history of the internet"
      She has been a kind of a role model for me for years. I'm still not fully decided on what style I want to be, or what kind of person (it doesn't just come naturally for me like it might to other people). But if I had to choose only one person to be more like, in terms of personality and intellectual profile, it would be her. That said, it is interesting to what extent my lookism (and maybe sound-ism?) clouds my judgment on this. And I think it does cloud it to some extent. Let me just say if I found a gf with 50% of Julia's looks and 30% of her intellect, I'd be happy. Well not "happy" happy (come on, who am I kidding) but it would be as close to a jackpot as someone like me could reasonably hope for.

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  4. My ideological encounters with online anons or content creators from mid-2010s onwards = Mostly positive/non-combative, in the ballpark of 80/20. Late 2000s and early 2010s = Something like the other way around.

    “it's more than balanced out by his army of loyal supporters”

    Even with a 9/1 ratio, I'm not sure this allows for a net plus, psychologically, as I don’t think you've got anything resembling a symmetry at play here. I’ve read abstracts of studies claiming that critical/negative comments are more impactful and memorable than flattering/positive ones. If I recall rightly, subjects were typical social media users, but I wouldn’t shy away from applying those findings to public figures/intellectuals using social media. So whatever is ultimately true of SH and rep-management for messianic/recruitment ends vs. rep-concern for psychological ends, even a very tall glass of lemonade (the best lemonade ever) stops being drinkable the moment a drop of shit falls into it. I could’ve said a few bad apples, but then you wouldn’t have had the pleasure of picturing a tiny turd in a glass with lemonade.

    (And because I apparently can’t resist making a contrived as hell call-back joke: You can’t talk about axiological asymmetries without also talking about social-feedback asymmetries)

    “I'd be surprised if he's even aware of the channel”

    He is. That’s why I linked to the podcast with him and EW. They discuss the MR crew. SH says he’s heard less than an hour of their stuff in total, which is enough to dismiss them and, I guess, snipe back at them by doing so. Lame move if you ask me.

    I have no idea how many percentage points I'd update my credence by if SH did the long response. Despite often singing the praises of % based updates being incorporated into one’s model of belief-formation/upkeep, I’m catching myself unable to do anything but take wild stabs at answering “by how much” on a wide range of practical issues. It’s one of the things holding up my sequence post on meta-politics. I’d rather not wing it with incautious guesswork.

    “Now THAT amount of shittiness from me is embarrassing”

    Just do what I sometimes resort to in abating guilt that arises from allowing badness: the donation may’ve gone to an [insert any brand of] ideological mortal enemy. And voila! No guilt! (for the next few secs anyway, until thoughts catch up to the feels)

    I saw Taxi Driver just once, about 3 years ago. Found it underwhelming, but in the back of my mind also figured that it’d get better with repeated viewings, but also that I’d never confirm this because too many other films/shows are competing for my time, and I can’t allow much in the way of repeats until I trim down my “classics I’m yet to see” list.

    I’ve seen a few videos doing comparative analysis with TD/Joker. Also invoking “The King Of Comedy” which I downloaded after seeing Joker, but am yet to see. Might just watch that one today (if I have an energy crash. If I don’t, I’ll try to get back to you on the aretaic stuff. I shouldn’t delay that too much, but that’s a “effort/concentration” reply, unlike this one).

    "my lookism"

    I don't think it's lookism if it's pre-institutional. Well technically that's wrong; on the wiki page for lookism they mention dating right near the top of the page, so I guess lookist-derived concerns have been extended into the non-institutional realm. They don't belong there. At least not when it remains such a problem in areas of public life. Go beyond that, and you might as well use "infatuation" and "lookism" interchangeably.

    Also, throw in anti-speciesism, and positive affect for hamsters vs. negative affect for rats can be problematized (when it is purely visually driven, as it so often is with animals).

    Pre-institutional anti-lookism + anti-speciesism makes classical agent-neutral ethical theories look undemanding by comparison. Now there's a sentence to frame and hang on a wall!

    "Soundism" Too easy, I'll pass.

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  5. Oh and I've been meaning to remark on: SH has made the availability of his podcast a subscriber only deal now. The 1st hour is still available to non-subscribers/non-patrons, everything that follows is not. Funny that, because over the last few months, there must've been at least 7 editions I started listening to and left unfinished, tapping out at around the hour mark. The Dawkins one I stopped at 1 hour sharp! Seriously. And now this announcement. Like it was meant to not be!

    So the incentive he has in mind is beyond comical, in my case as a listener. I would've been a patron on the spot back in 2015 before he monetized it (the way he did in 2016/17?). Back then the podcast was new and fresh and unlike any other one at the time (that I knew about anyway). It was worthy of monetary support. These days, guests are increasingly of the media-savvy public figure sort; the types always making the rounds to plug their latest book. He just had Donald Hoffman on (the interface guy). I'm not in the mood for even the first hour right now, so I've not heard any of it yet, but I guarantee you, nothing in that episode will add a shred of novelty to the hours upon hours of "Here's Hoffman on YouTube" content anyone can access at the drop of a hat.

    If SH is going this route, he needs to offer something truly unique. I'd be the first to dish out money if he were to, say, write another book on moral philosophy, request criticisms, and then devote a bunch of podcast episodes to hosting critics of his book (all kinds of critics, regardless of name recognition / lack thereof) and have in-depth discussions behind the pay wall. That's how you get me.

    But what do SH supporters have to say? Just the opposite: Many are booing the decision because they want the podcast to have as wide an audience as possible, and this will obviously impede that. FFS. The listenership is already too wide. The last discussion with any sustained philosophical acuity I can recall is the one with Benatar, which is two freaking years old now! But they're pushing for even *more* widening!

    Watch: He'll never write another book. He won't engage or do justice to topics he considers too complex/alienating for the wide listenership he wants the podcast to have, especially now that he knows he's about to take some hits due to the cutoff to non-patrons (involving anything past the 1st hour). To make up for that, I predict he'll be extra accommodating to simpletons and others with bare minimalistic philosophical appetites.

    The dumbest part of all this: He has convinced himself that Making Sense is "doing a bunch of good in the world" by reaching so many people. This is what he often says when he compares the rewards of hypothetically publishing a new book vs. releasing new material in podcast form. So, the podcast is roughly five years old, and it's "doing a bunch of good". But wait, he's also always bitching about this being the "Trumpism vs. Wokeism" era and how we've lost our collective minds. And then not realizing that these unfoldings coincided almost poetically in tune with the lifespan of the podcast.

    Too fucking hilarious.

    Damn, I intended for this to be a two paragraph comment at most. Guess I've been yearning to get the other stuff off my chest for a while (his "podcast > book" thoughts annoyed me before all this).

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  6. [1/2]
    I'll just comment on a couple of things.

    If you're opposed to the "lookism" terminology in the non-institutional realm, that's fine - we can call it whatever. But it also seems that we're not just employing different semantics but also different levels of concern for the issue. Here are some reasons why I care about it:

    1. I'm struggling to think of many institutional "isms" that don't have pre-institutional precursors. There are probably some (maybe religious bigotry), but lookism is undeniably evolutionarily formed and natural. It's probably useless to worry about it, because we're not at a point to eradicate it yet, but I think we should be clear on the culprit, if anything for epistemic reasons. And the culprit here isn't any institution, by far, but mother nature.

    2. I'd probably disagree that pre-institutional looks-based attraction is inconsequential. I've come closer to agreeing with a point you once made, which was that economic struggles may not be the central issues that plague people. Social isolation and loneliness and bullying can make people's lives seriously bad. In fact, if choosing from behind the veil of ignorance about everything else, I'm not sure if I'd rather be A) uglier than 80% of the population or B) poorer than 80% of the population, at least in the West (elsewhere, I'd choose A because the global bottom 20% is in abject poverty). But I don't claim that "thou shalt not be attracted based on appearance" must be included in any moral theory - that would rightly be ridiculous and overly demanding. It's more just me recognizing this state of affairs as unfortunate. It's evaluative/ranty rather than normative.

    3. Perhaps you don't experience it to the same extent as I do, but I'm very often (every other day or so) cognizant of missed friendship and relationship opportunities because the other person is just too fat or ugly for my "taste", even if their character and intelligence are more than impressive enough. I can recognize it, but I can rarely fight it. I tried. Conversely, being attracted to someone basic, but who has a pretty face, is also a bummer. Ever since I read the story "Liking What You See: A Documentary" by Ted Chiang, I've been wishing I could wipe out any trace of look-based attraction from my brain and never look back on the fucker. So when I brought it up in my previous comment, I was primarily thinking of this, non-moral (you could perhaps call it prudential) problem.

    Also, you once (very convincingly) argued that loyalty should be assigned solely based on character or intellect. I'd take that one step further and ideally have my affection/attraction/attention assigned based only on those criteria. Besides, if I'm not mistaken, you did once utter something like "we should all strive to be more sapiosexual". I mean it's not the end of the world if we're not (there are many worse things for sure), but it's bad enough to make me annoyed about it.

    To be consistent, I'd have to be annoyed at my gender and age "preferences" too (don't have much race stuff going on, so I'll ignore that one). And yes, I am annoyed at them to some extent, so I'm not one of those cherry pickers who are totally cool with one aesthetic preference (usually gender) but totally uncool with the other (usually race). Didn't we discuss at some point? I vaguely remember making similar points in response to that argument of yours. Anyway, the reason I don't dwell on those is that gender is somewhat indicative of personality I'm into, and age is somewhat indicative of intellect. But hey, if the anti-lookist pill could eradicate my heterosexuality and age-based pickiness, I'd only be happy. I have no use for them. Being into people based on undeserved and irrelevant factors is not a part of me that I value or want to retain.

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    1. [2/2]
      Re: SH Podcast - I've actually donated a few bucks to SH podcast a few years ago, before it was monetized. So I've been getting his subscriber-only content ever since, as one of the early patrons I guess. But the funny thing is that I'm barely ever interested enough to listen to it. My podcast downloader downloads them all, and I'm more than a year behind. When I do try an episode, I'm more likely than not to stop after 30 minutes and delete it, and listen to something either more stimulating, or less stimulating like music. I was planning to ask if you'd recommend any particular episode, but it seems that you're similarly disheartened about it. But do let me know if you're paywalled from an episode you're interested in, and I'll just send it to you, assuming I keep getting all the content for free.

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    2. My fault for being partly unclear: I think it's a bad idea to give the same word (in this case 'lookism') the assignment of tackling problems which vary immensely in levels of difficulty. One being the near-impossible-to-solve problem of potentially great interpersonal relationships and dynamics being curtailed or stunted due to uncontrollable forces. The other being the (relatively?) simple fix of implementing strong legal barriers against all forms of discrimination at the workplace or in other areas of public life. This is where lookism ought to be incredibly easy to kill, and it hasn't quite happened yet on the scale it should have. Now imagine it failing even on that front, and all because it takes on the connotations of the former versions (with added intersectionalistic layering to boot).

      We did have the discussions you mention, but those were acutely about sexual politics. If you recall, I landed on "Sexual Particularism" (coined by me!), concluding that sex-positivity/negativity/ambivalence cannot be generalized the way its respective coalitions seem to believe it can. Well, except for the ambivalent view. There is nothing close to a coalition behind that.

      Lookism, however, is about far more than sexually-derived choosiness, even in personal settings. So this would be a much wider topic than the one we discussed a couple of years back.

      In that post, I brought up sexual politics in tandem with racial politics because I was motivated to get a massive gotcha on intersectionalists by pointing to things like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aversive_racism

      It was one of the times I didn't follow my own "Beware Of Things That Are Fun To Argue" advice as strictly as I should have. Be that as it may, in my experience, the people who decry aversive racism the loudest are also the quickest to demonize anyone (but mostly JBP) for discussing the Sexual Revolution in terms of cost/benefit analysis, as opposed to the mindless "all win, all the time, for all involved!" hot-takes. What can I say, more epistemic defects to spotlight.

      And yeah, if anti-speciesism is interpreted the way I interpret it, the hamster>rat preference/aversion being visually-derived ought to bother the anti-lookist as much as the Human A > Human B preference/aversion. But I somehow doubt this will be granted by (even those few) who subscribe to anti-lookism and anti-speciesism. I find this interesting (apparently interesting enough to bring up twice). Just me?

      RE Making Sense podcast: I just might ask you for some AMA episodes. At some point...

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  7. To a very small extent, I am bothered by the hamster/rat preference/aversion. For many years (even before I heard of the term anti-speciesism) I thought it was silly to scapegoat some animals based on their lack of cuteness, but for me it merited ridicule rather than serious criticism. I was (and still am) relatively unbothered by it because very little is at stake, compared to pretty/ugly preference/aversion. But suppose that more was hanging on it, and hamsters were actually becoming more of a nuisance than rats, while also getting less hate/disgust. Then it would warrant a stronger pushback. I think most anti-lookists are undisturbed by speciesism because they're SJWs who couldn't give a fuck about animals. But for me it just follows that, despite being visually driven and instinctual, it is possible to be incorrectly attracted/repelled. At least cuteness has to be recognized as an incorrect/irrelevant criterion, so as to make sure animal welfare efforts are assigned properly. Normative ethics has no place for cuteness. Perhaps you think that in applied ethical situations, it's permissible... I don't know. Is my view outlandish?

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    1. I agree with all the other points you made BTW.

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    2. Edit: That was more fast thinking on my part. Of course you don't suggest that visually driven and instinctive attraction/repulsion has a place in normative ethics! Duh. I should have known better, and I feel very guilty for having brought that up. I should just wait until I have energy, so as to avoid saying/implying stupid shit like that.

      That said, I'm still not 100% certain why you brought up the hamsters and rats twice, but my (more charitable) guess is that it was supposed to be an analogy to sexually derived choosiness. Compared to their institutional counterparts (lookism and speciesism/animal exploitation for lack of a better term), both pre-institutional attitudes are 1) extremely difficult or almost impossible to fix, and 2) less impactful. Given that, it's a bad idea to problematize them to the same extent by reusing the institutional terms. We shouldn't blur these lines because in doing that, we're making the institutional counterparts seem unsolvable and perhaps unimpactful. If this is still way off target, let me know, but I think I'm getting closer after the second attempt.

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    3. Nearly a month later, and I muster the will to reply "yes, that's it" to your final paragraph.

      There might be more to it though.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron#Plot

      Does this kind of dystopian porn just make you roll your eyes? Or does it do what it sets out to; fill you with some combination of fear/indignation/contempt that the logical outcome of pure egalitarianism is plausibly represented by this type of society?

      With me, it activates both reactions, and I have no clue which one is more powerful. I dislike the underlying groveling of the natural-order that the author banks on, mainly because it's so easy to miss that that's exactly what the moral force of the novel relies on. On the other hand, I've come to truly despise people who'd go to absurd lengths to reduce or eliminate natural inequalities, but who would think it out of the question to posit a lifeless future as one that's superior to any life-bountiful one where natural inequalities necessarily persist, and who pretend that the logistical nightmares entailed by their institutional solutions aren't nightmarish at all, and that non-egalitarians are too dim to grasp the plans.

      Imagine being presented with narrow "do something" vs. "do nothing" setup for Aesthetic Augmentation on the macro-level. How short/long would a short/long-term cost have to be for you to consider it justifiable to coercively change visual tastes in ways that would objectively improve the quality of relationships (i.e. less rejects, less divorces, single parent households, etc). If it took a decade for our biology to catch up to the impositions' aims, would that be too long a burden?

      The catch: You either augment everyone's tastes in ways that ideally improve life outcomes for all, post-biological catch-up moment, or you augment nobody's (not even your own). So you get to fix pre-institutional lookist-derived harms via institutional mechanisms, but involuntarily. Given the chance to put it in motion, I'd walk away. But I sense that's more "yuk" than reasons. Maybe because I just don't want to be the type of person targeted by dystopian porn. But that's personal. Why am I so temperamentally averse to sensible cost/benefit thinking, in this specific case?

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    4. I just read the story prior to reading your take on it. It's as short as the Wikipedia article, if not shorter, and just as digestible.

      I have an ambivalent response too. I obviously have no respect for the natural order. But I think another reason for the "against" response is an uncharitable interpretation of egalitarianism. Certainly, there are bad ways to desire equality. If the leveling down bullet is bitten by a mainstream egalitarian, then the story is relevant. And there are people like that. There's a question on OkCupid (among ~3,600 that I've answered.. they are addictive, ok?!) that roughly asks "which is worse: 1) someone getting a good thing they don't deserve, or 2) someone not getting a good thing they deserve?". Several people I stumbled upon have chosen 1, which I found quite off-putting. But I really don't think it's a common trait. When push comes to shove, most self-described egalitarians wouldn't want to cripple everybody and remove their natural advantages so as to equalize them. They think everyone deserves health, wealth, happiness, freedom, but plenty are not getting it, so that's the problem to fix. I might be naive, but I think most people who complain about inequality are closet sufficientarians who aren't careful in their axiology. Not all - some are crazy equalizers - but most. At least in my experience. Either way, that's definitely not a steel man.

      I don't immediately have the "walk away" response to the 10 year project you posited. I'd have to find out just what it entails, and what's so bad about it. But I can imagine coercive policies that I'm on board with. Say we discover a gene for pre-institutional lookism precursor, and are able to select against it when making children. I think it would be fine to provide an incentive of some kind for people to use that option. Perhaps not as strong an incentive as we would have for selecting non-psychopaths and non-retards. But an incentive nonetheless, perhaps as strong as when it comes to other ism precursors. I might even extend it to people themselves, rather than their offspring, iff the "treatment" is equivalently simple and effective.

      If it's anything long running, substantively mistaken, and ineffective mass conversion therapy, like the Marxist-Leninist "re-education" camps in USSR, I would also have an aversion response.

      Finally, I think that equalizing people's tastes/distastes for trivial characteristics is not the same as equalizing those characteristics. For some reason, I would feel more worried at the prospect of making everyone equally attractive, and less worried about making everyone *think* that everyone is equally attractive. Something about altering the perception of reality, as opposed to altering the reality itself, makes it feel less dystopian for me. But I don't know as well. It's a more interesting and nuanced subject than I initially thought.

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    5. "chosen 1"

      Thanks for sharing, it's always nice when someone justifies my unjustifiably hasty first-impression dismissals of entire sites. "Just what I'd expect from a cesspool" is what I thought as I read you. At least, that's accurate insofar as our thoughts resemble our spoken words in some cases; this would be one of those cases where I feel I can confidently relay my thoughts verbatim. Now if I can only get your disgust levels to rise somewhere near mine, maybe you'll stop feeding the beast and getting mud on you..

      But I also wonder if people's answers would've been different had the question explicitly used welfare as the currency of desert, and then additionally, if it had differentiated between negative & positive levels of welfare over a lifetime. It seems reasonable that a person who enjoys a lifetime of very high positive welfare and who has a not-so-close fit of welfare received and welfare deserved makes for a more desirable world compared to a world where said person endures a lifetime of negative welfare, but has a very close fit of welfare received and welfare deserved, because he's just that much of a bastard. As undeserving as the 2nd incarnation of this person is, it's better to treat the received/deserved fittingness as counting for plenty within the well-off value spectrum, and for none or next-to-none within the badly-off disvalue spectrum. The question in Cupid doesn't "Zoom Out" in this way, and is therefore potentially misleading.

      But I framed things in terms of two different incarnations of the same person, as opposed to conjuring two different people with distant levels of deserved/received fit, which may also tug at intuitions differently (extending deserved/received concerns to negative cases).

      http://web.mit.edu/bskow/www/research/utility.pdf

      "I am only developing the part of the axiology that applies to positive levels of desert and welfare. It is only when these levels are positive that (MU-1), (MU-2), and (D) are true. They are not plausible for negative desert levels. (D) is certainly not plausible in that case: if someone deserves to be living a life with a negative welfare level and he enjoys a life high in welfare, it is a bad thing to make his life even better"

      Haven't finished this yet, but I have to credit it for making me go on about that question. Oddly timed too, as I only started the paper a day or so before you left this comment.

      You're probably right about egalitarians out in the wild being drawn to some kind of sufficientarian or prioritarian view over the egalitarian ones. I wish social scientists/statisticians would investigate this. It's such an important distinction, practically as well as theoretically, and there's no hard data on it (from what I've tried to uncover anyway).

      But when it comes to egalitarianism as a distinct formal view in Distributive Justice, I don't buy that strict egalitarians are confused in any such way. There has to be enough of them to justify the existence of the longstanding inclusion of egalitarianism within the DJ portfolio in the first place. There's the "equality of what" internal squabble, but even if the most sensible egalitarians come out on top there, the resulting Steelman Egalitarianism wouldn't automatically get around every inegalitarian objection, to my satisfaction. Ultimately, I think all egalitarians need to think more seriously about natural inequalities, which means coming to terms with a more critical take on the natural lottery, meaning something in the neighbourhood of philosophical pessimism. But they won't. They need to be pressed on this, and no one (friend or foe) puts the challenge to them.

      Agreed on providing incentives for weeding out precursors to lookism/other stuff, insofar as the programs are methodologically nothing like 'New Man' idealism. Nudges + Short & Sweet = I'd vote for it.

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    6. "it's always nice when someone justifies my unjustifiably hasty first-impression dismissals of entire sites"
      You're feeling nice prematurely. #SorryNotSorry. I'm aware that your self-deprecating tone implies that you're not entirely serious, and/or that this isn't a central point, but I also know there's a grain of truth in it, and that has been bugging me. What bugs me is not the accusation that I'm getting mud on me (I know that very well - quite often I drown in shit), but a kind of inconsistency or even a dissonance, if I'm being super uncharitable and combative. I mean, can you tell me with a straight face that an average YouTube user has more palatable views than an average OkCupid user? Or that the distribution on any given issue favors this service over that service? Doesn't stop you from using YT. Likewise, do you not get mud on you, and waste your precious time on trash that doesn't deserve it? Granted, our motivations for mud exposure are different. I've held my nose and gone over hundreds of repulsive (but mostly basic and bland) profiles to find and develop a somewhat consistent cuddleship, with which I'm pretty satisfied. A different, but equally valid, analogy is the workplace and labor. You know better than me how much crap has to be endured in order to attain financial comfort and stability. My reasons for putting up with online dating are not that different: it boils down to the direct hedonic impact, as well as being able to focus on other things of value for me. Some of us have different and bigger beasts to feed, but I doubt any of us can really stop feeding them.


      "it's better to treat the received/deserved fittingness as counting for plenty within the well-off value spectrum, and for none or next-to-none within the badly-off disvalue spectrum"
      In a recent conversation with someone, I was pointing out (what I thought was) an inconsistency in anti-desert sentiment that was related to what you're describing. Most people who don't like desert (in my experience) only ever complain about punishment for bad things. But rarely do they protest against rewarding someone who has done a good thing. I thought it was yet another amusing fallacy. Definitely not proud of that "gotcha" thinking on my part. I have forgotten the way you (and plenty other particularists) do ethics, and this reminds me of the good old days. If you recall, I'm somewhere in the middle: I'm not a radical principlist but something like reflective equilibrium has always sounded right to me. So, back to the negative/positive desert assymetry: it's not ridiculous after all, but I'm reluctant to give it much credibility. Actually, I don't think it's necessary to align with your judgment. A rejoinder could be this: the desert-derived value is independent of welfare-derived value. That is, if we just look at desert, the received/deserved fittingness counts just as much in the positive and negative spectra, no matter how far away from zero we go. In that respect, the world is getting better the more things are deserved and the fewer things are undeserved, good or bad. But the further away from 0 we go, the more welfare-derived value (or disvalue) accumulates, and the more likely it is to offset the desert-derived value. You don't need a desert assymetry to argue that someone who deserves torture should nevertheless not be tortured: you just need to argue that some very bad things shouldn't be done even to people who fully deserve them.

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    7. Well, that first part turned out more accusative, defensive, and emotive than I like. That's what happens when I'm tired and don't wait until a good mood arrives before I start talking. So yeah, ignore any connotations of personal gripes or snarks that may be extracted from that comment, if you can. I overreacted. I still stand by the substance: we all have to navigate cesspools, to one degree or another, in search of a rare treat. I don't see how that can be avoided, as long as the treat has something to do with people.

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