Wednesday, December 11, 2019

Unvirtuous Ethics


Unvirtuous Ethics


 
Context: Word on the street is that beginning December 10th, YouTube will start deleting content from users who refuse to or who are unable to monetize their uploads and posts. I am one such user, and though I cannot gauge the likelihood of this threat, a trusty friend who has been on-the-ball about this sort of stuff before has assured me that I have nothing to fret over.

But just to play it safe, I plan to re-upload many of my videos to a different platform, and to convert most of my Community Posts over to this blog. This will require much work on my part, and knowing me, plus the number of videos/posts I consider worthy of the move, along with the indexing of paragraphs and the structuring of typological emphasis never carrying over from YouTube, what needs to be done in a timely fashion will not be done in a timely fashion. So if my semi-legit fear about YouTube targeting un-monetized content turns out to be grounded in reality, some worthwhile content stands to be wiped out before I get around to giving it a new home.

By worthwhile content, I have some videos in mind, but mostly the community posts and comment exchanges. Here’s one post stimulating a fruitful exchange which should be moved ASAP. The initial post by me is fine I guess, though it’s another example of an inconsequential rando inducing ill-tempered scornfulness in me, in lieu of well-tempered engagement. Which segues nicely into what the comments are about!


Virtue Mingling


The exchange with Oleksiy inspired the title I'm running with. Even though I saw fit to use his comment as a springboard for all this, I am aware that his position is more layered than our brief exchange here lets on. Readers take note; his thoughts below are not what I'm taking issue with for the better part of this post. One thing cementing that is this reply I received from him months ago on a blog post of his. I initially set out to cover his thoughts and nothing else, but because I've been lowkey stewing over Virtue Ethics for years, I just went off and barely looked back. The points I eventually attack revolve around different themes, and some fairly arcane stuff, but it’s good for you. It’s like a cognitive Buckely’s.

The OP is not-so-arcane, but here it is anyway:


Steven Hales' full piece in Quillette. And the reply to it I included in my OP. Both are largely irrelevant for what's to come:


The below was to have been my second reply, but the comment failed to post when I tried to leave it in its entirety, causing me to throw my hands up in the air, but to stop short of waving them around like I just don't care (because I do care), and to instead move everything over to blogger.



I have serious reservations about any aretaic bits being thrown into the mix of primary components and categories of systematic ethics. When it’s normative, it starts and ends with the telic and the deontic. One has to think ultra-critically about what it means to distinguish clearheadedly between corruptible vs. non-corruptible mental activities. There are corruptible mental activities which at first blush appear innocuous, and those which are in fact innocuous, but carry the tenor of corruptibility. The moment a moral agent broaches the former territory, a telic or deontic theory has him scouted. Not sometimes, but 100% of the time. I am prepared to die on this hill, and decompose on it if need be. Things may widen somewhat once we consider Applied Ethics, but I doubt this widening will absorb anything from the Aristotelian tradition.

It is admittedly strange that I am still so unconvinced by all things aretaic belonging in the same (major) league of ethics, in that I’ve shifted toward a favorable view of the importance of Intellectual Character qua Intellectual Faculties as a property that grounds or corresponds to final epistemic value. This, in a nutshell, means that I’ve warmed up to one strand of Virtue Epistemology, and have come to think little of the “Naturalized Epistemology” family of views advanced by Quine.

But despite all this, I am as skeptical as I have ever been about the alleged importance of moral character. I don’t buy the idea that it ever contributes to first-order moral value, even though Intellectual Character does precisely this in relation to epistemic value. I’ll say more about this asymmetry at the end.


In giving moral character a seat at the first-order moral table, we would be:


1. Stacking the deck against misanthropes. Some misanthropes merit having the deck stacked against them, but not simply because they are (attitudinally) misanthropic. Aretaic criterions stack decks against even those misanthropes who disallow their genuine compulsions to influence their moral philosophy; their formulations of right action and beneficence, which may be as demanding as any people-loving non-misanthrope’s formulations of the same. Given these overlaps, the philosophically attentive misanthrope should be able to rest easy regardless of how deep his attitudinal meanness runs.

His misanthropy can own his mind in doxastically irrelevant and mundane ways; everyday thoughts and reveries, heinous as they might appear to the “people person” and to sanctimonious interpretations of moral necessity and superiority.


I’ll use myself as precedent: My misanthropy is only partly circumstantial (i.e. partly “externally driven”). I’m confident that it is also psychological or innate (don’t ask about the percentage breakdowns, I cannot hazard a guess). The point is, while I don’t rely on these tendencies to validate callous or malicious acts and assessments, I also don’t dislike my misanthropy in the slightest, and I don’t think anyone has an argument for why I should dislike it, or why I should work to mitigate it at the point of impulse. The nearest thing aretaic thinkers have to an argument here are appeals to my prudential goods (and even there, I would advise against pro-aretaic generality or universality, because people are different and their differences are disqualifying of uniform advice). But that’s immaterial, as it departs from ethics properly understood.


Just as this is applicable to misanthropes who “think” one way in one sense, and who “believe” in another way in another (hopefully analytical) sense, I see no reason why the same cannot apply to a surfeit of dispositionally-anomalous types who bask in their bad thoughts and disdainful attitudes, but who don’t behave badly as a result, or analyze crudely/poorly as a result. Only when the agent’s moral self-development becomes closed off by an internal block can sensible ethical worries be said to arise.

When I propound “belief/act > thought/affect” the picture of “>” I have in mind is absolute. I am ready to extend this absolutist formula to sadists, egomaniacs, psychopaths, pedophiles, affect-contrarians and a host of other ‘types’ I can’t think to name right now, as I imagine some in their ranks are fitting of roughly the same “belief/act > thought/affect” compartmentalization as the ideal misanthrope is. And if none are so constituted in actuality, as long as it is conceivable that some could be, that should be enough to establish the sharp anti-aretaic view.



You might conjure enough oddballs whose propositional and non-propositional attitudes aren’t neatly divided up and form a sturdy gray area, such that their aretaic-centered viciousness is neither perfectly benign nor overtly threatening. I suppose in those cases, my absolutist line wouldn’t be so absolute. But this doesn’t flatter the aretaic stance; the gray area is construed as such precisely because we are already taking stock in the telic and the deontic yardsticks as its determinants.



It’s tempting to say “But the misanthrope and all these oddball types can be taught to regret their recurrent hateful thoughts, and with enough regret, they might move towards augmenting their attitudinal profiles just enough to become blameless in the aretaic-adjusted sense of blamelessness” and this would be goody two-shoes piety plain and simple. It would border on training oneself to not find anything funny (internally) about sacrilegious, nasty, or downward-punching jokes; jokes which land because the audience is aware that the punchline is too flustering for some. When such jokes resonate, they do so within the depths of the psyche. The moral tale told by the aretaic thinker teaches that such psyches are in need of a cleansing. But they are not. If sentient meatbags can grasp that they have no soul in need of saving, they can grasp that an amoral innermost aspect of them needs no salvation.

Not every part of us needs to be moral. Self-denial is fine and well when it serves the deontic or telic spheres of ethics (with apologies to Nietzscheans and Machiavellians). But self-denial in the name of aretaic ends is, I think, indistinguishable from the religious piety we’re so quick to call out and mock. The flustered pearl-clutcher is best left unappeased.

So to all virtue ethicists, I say: I’m here, I’m unvirtuous, don’t argue with it.

Or at least don’t conflate the beneficent misanthrope’s delighting at his own cynical and contemptuous ways for a genuine minus (however small) accruing to his moral agency. The (arguable) rareness of such misanthropes isn't the point.

I can imagine more hospitable pushback in the form of “Sure, but this just means we need to de-sanctify the standards by which we evaluate moral agents’ innermost selves, and prop up the attributes of the deliciously misanthropic cynic” and I would disagree there too. The contempt, disgust, impatience and moodiness I often operate under makes me neither morally worse, nor morally better, than non-misanthropic moral agents who are estranged from such affects, but who do share my views, and who do act similarly to how I act.

Target the contributions. Leave the psyche alone.

2. We are assuming that moral character is a stable or “stable enough” array of attributes. If I’m mistaken about that being the implication, then it must be intelligible to talk of Alice’s “moral character” as superior to Bob’s “moral character” despite the instability. But how many people can you realistically do this with? Frighteningly few, because character is context-dependent and predictably unstable (in just about every person I’m familiar with, anyway). So by what unstable-standard do we rank and compare moral characters? How unstable is too unstable before rigorous comparisons of all characterological nuts/bolts become absurd and impossible?

The difficulty is there even if we zero in on public figures who (appeared to have) had remarkably stable ones, like Fred Rogers. Was Rogers’ moral character superior to that of Nelson Mandela’s? No virtue ethicist will pretend to have a solid answer for this, and for good reason.

But once we do our best to compare the two men’s individual contributions, it’s a different story. Mandela is decidedly ahead. An omnipercipient cognizer will manage to figure out whose moral performance wins out, or whose level of other-regarding moral concern was in fact weightier, far better than we can ever hope to do. But I don’t see how the same cognizer would ever manage to figure out a way to glean anything beyond that; something deeper. Something pure or de-purifying.

Now add into the mix someone acutely unrefined, like Doug Stanhope. According to character-centered thinkers, he must be morally worse, in the slightest, given his naked crudeness and unapologetic anything-goes lifestyle. But surely you're inclined to think; No freaking way! Doug is fine just as he is!

Well, ask virtue ethicists just how awesome they find him to be and you’re likely to be in for some disappointment.

So if interpersonal comparisons go out the window, what’s left of the theory?

With telic and deontic criterions, whether combined or splintered, we have some hope of determining who is better/worse as a moral agent (read: as a moral performer of some sort). With aretaic “internal” criteria, it’s hard to see how one reaches anything resembling a concrete verdict. But notice how the problem runs deeper than inaccessible information about moral agents and their impacts or intents, since that problem hinders telic and deontic evaluations as well. These questions are uniquely pressing when aretaic inputs are on trial: How many knee-jerk mean thoughts or knee-jerk hateful thoughts make someone morally worse, all else being equal?

It’s so much easier to answer this question if we substitute “knee-jerk thoughts” with “deeds” or “omissions” or “general concerns over pro-social rules being followed vs. not followed”. It’s harder, and I would argue impossible, when you re-insert habitual mental activities into it. And I mean mental activities as such, not “mental activities corruptible of the deontic and/or telic domains of ethics” because then it’s just a game of whack-a-mole. We’re not playing that game here, though I suspect virtue ethicists often play it. I imagine this goes a long way in explaining why “hateful” and “prejudicial” have been used interchangeably by cosmopolitans, xenophiles, and philosophers (in some quarters). If we could do a study on these people's moral theory of choice, after ensuring that they acquire equal familiarity with the usual candidates, would it surprise anyone to find that they overwhelmingly end up being drawn to Virtue Ethics?

Maybe it’s slightly different than what I've inferred, and they contend that wretched thoughts necessarily disrupt something in the non-aretaic realm, rendering aretaic standards as constitutive of other standards. But then why aren’t they proponents of all three big tents? Or at least two of the three? It makes no sense to say “Look! Look! We’ve shown that A is constitutive of B and C, and therefore we’re going to exclude B and C and just call ourselves devotees of A!”.

Virtue ethics being necessarily complementary to other normative theories is probably not your jam, so this is a side issue. But on the chance that you do believe it in a minimal sense, we just disagree factually. I’m my own case study.

3. If we set our sights on perspectives of moral character which have been formalized and systematized, rather than armchair talk, we incorporate Virtue Ethics into the space of credible moral theories. Maybe you were appealing to unsystematic notions of moral character while still employing the word aretaic, and so my pointed criticisms don’t hold much water. But then I’m arguing against a phantom. I need to hear more about your particular (folk?) construal of the telic-deontic-aretaic trisection. Something not captured by the first two.

Some systematized perspectives putting moral character front and center are taken to be irreligious, but you gotta know that the explicitly religious ones played a big role in influencing them. This explains why the baggage of loyalty (hello groupism) and self-control (hello prudence-not-ethics) were/are staples of Aristotelian Virtue Ethics. Pretty big strike if you ask me. And so, I take the truly irreligious ones to be heterodox (which is probably why I don’t know anything about them; they’ve been so ignored by the heavy-hitters from that tradition, you have to travel far to obtain exposure to them). If those neglected ones are the only ones you are happy to entertain, maybe I’ll learn something. But first you must agree that things get nonsensical once those explicitly religious perspectives get a foot in the door, as with the technically irreligious (quasi-religious) alternatives.

And that is why everyone should be a combiner of the telic/deontic only. It makes for a clean back-and-forth: The good is prior to the right, given the awful state of the world. But it doesn’t have to be. The less we have in the way of natural harms, the closer the right gets to being prior to the good. Insert virtue into the equation as a third-wheel and it sullies the elegance of the arrangement.

(Another way of putting it: The less natural harms one or more moral patients have to endure, the less reasons there are for a moral agent to be a welfarist. Insert virtue as such into the equation as a third-wheel and it sullies the arrangement.)

Back to Intellectual Character: I used to be as dismissive of Virtue Epistemology as I am (evidently) hostile to Virtue Ethics. But no longer! In my “November’s Best Of” post, I shared a paper whose writer sidesteps Virtue Responsibilism and embraces Virtue Reliabilism (two major strands of Virtue Epistemology). He explains how the reliabilist position gets around the problem posed by the “Situationist Challenge” and does so in ways that absolve Virtue Epistemologists of the class of attacks I’ve mounted here against Virtue Ethicists.

Prior to my discovery of this paper, I just lazily figured that ethicists’ criticisms of Virtue Ethics naturally parallel epistemologists’ criticisms of Virtue Epistemology. That was hasty. The analogue ends the moment you move past responsibilism. Epistemic Virtue Reliabilism is a thing. But “Moral Reliabilism” isn’t, and I don’t see how it could be, given the differences between Moral and Intellectual Character.

Culturally radiant example: When people mock Trump for having small hands, or for being off his rocker, or for being anxious about his manhood, or for having daddy issues, or for wearing a crapload of makeup (presumably because he feels insecure without it), they are not making a moral mistake, but an intellectual one. Consider the ripples of those jabs for a sec; bolstering sizeism, stigmatizing mental illnesses, snubbing gender egalitarianism in practice (plenty of women wear makeup because they’re insecure as shit. Why is it funny when a man feels the same way?), etc. None of this would be ammo for my purposes if the sorts of people who commonly make and laugh at such jokes didn’t also have these very societal issues as their pet areas of concern. But because they are devoted to one or several of these causes, not seeing how the jokes undermine their socially-reformist efforts reflects badly on their intellectual character (such as it is), but not on their moral one. It is not immoral, after all, to take the piss out of asshats like Trump. No joke at his expense can be rough enough in my estimation.

I could list example after example of blatant intellectual vices. It is difficult to argue that they are in some way also indicative of moral vices (moral mistakes, that is). But intellectually faultless, they are not. One can fill a book with this stuff. The internet is an endless supplier of it. Tempting as it is to continue, I’ll leave it at that for now.

Maybe I’ve missed the forest, or am engaging in undetectably motivated reasoning, as nowadays I’m rarely disgusted with people over their moral failings, but am routinely disgusted with them over their epistemic blunders (upon blunders). But I doubt that’s what’s driving any of this. I think my broader reasons are pretty airtight.


Note that there will be no shortage of thoughtful counterpoints from Oleksiy, so the reader is encouraged to consult the comment section, either here or at the community page.









19 comments:

  1. [1/3]
    Glad to have made it to your blog! The post is bold, interesting, and clear, but I'll probably only get to respond to 10% of it, as I agree with a lot of things you said. Here it goes, roughly in the order the points were made:

    Virtue/vice is not the same thing as attitudinal negativity/positivity, at least in my view. The type of your attitude (love, hate, admiration, indifference) is only a partial determinant of the attitude's blame- or praiseworthiness. The second part is the value of the object of your attitude. Is it a good/valuable or a bad/disvaluable thing that you're thinking/feeling about? Is there another way to evaluate it?

    To determine if misanthropy is vicious (or virtuous or neutral), we need to know if humanity is worthy of contempt or disgust or whatever other negative attitude misanthropy implies. I think there are quite a few good reasons for answering "hell yes" to that question, so the attitude is, at the very least, justified to some extent. It's not a vice to be a misanthrope, unless contempt is the only attitude you ever have towards humans, which I'm sure you don't. There are some good things about humanity and individual humans, even if those constitute a minority, so a 100% misanthropy would be unfitting too. You can (and in many cases should) have conflicting attitudes about the same thing, because many things are multifaceted.

    Conversely, it can be vicious to feel positive (or even neutral) about things that are contemptible and repugnant. The other two combinations are not ruled out either: if the object of your attitude is a good thing, but you hate it for some reason (say it's a clear net benefit but it inconveniences you), then your negative attitude is wrong/unwarranted/vicious. And, needless to say, it is good/warranted/virtuous to feel positive about truly admirable things/people.

    TLDR: An attitude is virtuous iff it is a fitting attiude to have towards its object.

    "So to all virtue ethicists, I say: I’m here, I’m unvirtuous, don’t argue with it."
    I'm not a virtue ethicist (at least not to the exclusion of deontic and telic realms), but I'll go ahead and say that you're pretty fucking virtuous, as far as I can tell. I don't want to get bogged down in determining what standards are appropriate for your highness, like we did when discussing authenticity. But if you disagree with me and still think you're a bad/shitty person (because that's essensially what unvirtuous means), then tell us some of the most unfitting attitudes you have. I dare you. What contemptible things do you love/tolerate, and what admirable things do you loathe?

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    1. [2/3]
      Yeah I'm not going to give you a clear and systematic standard for what constitutes virtue, or a precise way to rank people in terms of their character. Point taken: it's difficult. But I think you're overstating the ease with which those can be acquired in the deontic realm. It might be more challenging when it comes to virtue, but it's a difference in degree, not in kind. When I compare the evaluability/rankability of someone's attitudes vs their acts, they seem almost on par. You're aretaically good insofar as your attitudes are right, and you're deontically good insofar as your actions are right. There might be less disagreement about what constitutes right action, but it can't be that much simpler.

      I once argued that the right action can be determined by (reduced to) the evaluative/telic realm. I don't stand by everything I wrote then, but if any of it is at all plausible, it would apply to attitudes as well as acts. So I suppose the position I'm mostly in favor of (and I'm very, very unsure) is that 1) all three moral realms are real, 2) A < D < T in terms of priority (generally), and 3) A reduces to T, and D reduces to T.

      This is a tangent, but alternatively, A reduces to T, and D reduces to A. The right action is determined by whether it was caused/accompanied by a fitting attitude/thought, and the right attitude/thought is determined whether it fits the value of its object. This is quite weird, and I haven't thought about it much, so I'll probably stick with A->T and D->T reductions as opposed to the more ambitious D->A->T. In either case, you get a nice monist picture (and I like my actions/attitudes to be at least not fully disconnected from the value they're affecting/reflecting). Below is my paper defending D->T reductionism for anyone who's interested.
      https://analyticinferences.wordpress.com/2019/06/21/reasons-do-not-ground-value-they-are-derived-from-it/

      "It’s so much easier to answer this question if we substitute “knee-jerk thoughts” with “deeds” or “omissions” or “general concerns over pro-social rules being followed vs. not followed”"
      Apples and oranges, because of the "knee-jerk" part. If you substitute "knee-jerk thoughts" with literal knee-jerks or knee-jerk omissions, you don't get a clearer verdict. You can't evaluate "knee-jerk" attitudes OR acts. Both have to be consciously recognized, considered, and endorsed, which means they're not merely knee-jerk/instinctive, but rational. Yes, they can arise out of instinct/psychology/biology/innateness, but origin =/= identity; once you've accepted them for lack of a better word, they're now rationally supported and can affect your moral score. Example: I notice some people-pleasing tendencies in myself, but that alone doesn't matter, because I don't endorse them and try not to act on them. But if I didn't care about these qualities and let them rule my behavior, then I'd be a worse person to some extent.

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    2. [3/3]
      That's enough criticism of the post (especially given that its main target - virtue ethics at the expense of other ethics - is something I agree is bullshit). But I might as well copy+paste some of my initial motivations for taking the aretaic realm seriously, from another exchange I had with ABM. I admit that it does seem petty to worry about mere thoughts in the face of real suffering and real injustice, but see if anything below resonates.

      "Thought crimes. You often mock the idea. But I could think of examples of not exactly crimes, but morally evaluable thoughts. And that's what you're disputing, right? The idea that someone can do a wrong just by thinking. But consider personal relationships, and in particular romantic stuff. Cheating is wrong, but what actually constitutes cheating? Is it just the physical act of fucking or kissing? I don't think so. That's just the dot over the i, at most. The bigger chunk of cheating happens prior to the act itself, in the adulterer's mind. The decision to cheat is the necessary and sufficient condition for having cheated. Even if the act is not carried out, the person who decided to cheat is a cheater, and is therefore doing something wrong. If someone decided to betray me by doing X, they have already betrayed me at that point, whether or not X is done later. But a decision is a thought. It's purely mental. So, if we're on the same page, then you'd have to concede that thoughts are not always morally neutral, but can be praised or blamed. There are plenty of other examples where the same physical effect is evaluated differently based on intent, and intent is also just a thought. In fact, thoughts are probably the only things that enable moral blame/praise, as opposed to mere evaluation of goodness/badness. So I wonder how justified your mocking of thought crimes is in light of this central position that thoughts seem to occupy in ethics."

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    3. [Some remarks after another reading of the post]

      I now realize that I didn't address a few good points that should have significantly lowered my confidence. That makes sense, as it is always more fun and easy to look for (what I see as) the weakest points and attack the fuck out of those. But the following issues you brought up are genuinely difficult for someone who takes virtue ethics seriously:

      1) Does entertaining and enjoying sadistic/psychopathic attitudes alone(!) make one a worse person?
      2) Does enjoying purposefully offensive humor make one a worse person?
      3) Should we deny ourselves when we notice bad character traits that are guaranteed not to impact our actions?

      1) Personally, I'd be more comfortable around people who weren't sadists and psychopaths, even if I could detect no difference in their behavior. But I understand that my discomfort is not an indicator of their moral character... Now that I think of it, I'm entertaining the idea that simply enjoying these thoughts has no impact on their moral character.

      I wonder, however, why they don't act on these fantasies, given that they seemingly endorse them. Could it be that they approve of the mere thoughts about e.g. torture (maybe because the thoughts give them pleasure), but would never endorse the actual thing? At least not enough, all things considered, to act on it? If that's the case, I'm tempted to agree with you that deontic and telic criteria are exhaustive. But in that case, their recognition of (nonconsensual) sadism as wrong signifies, in a way, the goodness of their character. Some might even argue that it makes them better than a non-sadist in that way, because they are tempted but manage to refrain.

      2) This is quite a thorny problem because I love offensive humor, but I'm unwilling to consider myself worse characterologically because of that. I suppose my answer would be similar to the previous one. Joking about something bad doesn't reflect on one's character unless they genuinely endorse that thing, to the point where they'd be ok doing/tolerating it. When I laugh at a joke about killing children, I don't therefore have an attitude that it is permissible to kill children. To the contrary, one thing that makes downward-punching jokes funny for me is the barely perceptible pang of guilt. If I didn't think there was anything wrong with it, I wouldn't find it anywhere near as funny.

      Look at this 30-second video, which is an old favorite of mine:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiHYWzuC6pc

      It's funny because the situation described is so wrong. But suppose that Vegan Gains actually feels that way non-ironically, AND that he would do it, if he could get away with it. I'd say that would make him a worse person, and it would make the joke unfunny.

      I guess I'm denying that it's possible to have a genuinely negative aretaic profile without letting it affect your actions. What you decide to do, ultimately, tells what kind of person you are. If you stop yourself from doing bad things despite your impulses, then you probably treat them as wrong. So, your aretaic attitudes are fine, on balance. This might look like a dodge or a concession, and it might be a bit of both, but remember that I'm trying to figure out a plausible monism of the ethical realms. The D->A->T reductionist view that I briefly mentioned earlier may be able to make sense of this.

      3) No. If there's no impact on how you behave, then there must be stronger and more noble attitudes that stop you. The moral character score is thus non-negative, so there's no need for self-denial.

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    4. Edit: never mind the "and it would make the joke unfunny" claim. It would still be funny. For all I know, he might be dead serious, yet I still find it hilarious. I probably meant to say it would be unfunny if you didn't see a problem with what he was describing. Funniness in this case depends on a recognition that something seriously messed up is going on, thereby absolving the people who find it funny.

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    5. Unvirtuous doesn’t mean shitty in this context, because we're using the word in its technical / moral-philosophical sense. This doesn’t alter its definition, but it gives it a weight not present in ordinary discourse, which I believe justifies that quote from me.

      Also: Don’t ruin the waggish title of this post by essentially calling it an oxymoron.

      “we need to know if humanity is worthy of contempt or disgust or whatever other negative attitude misanthropy implies”

      We don’t, because that’s a group-level judgment, which I would advocate against. Even if the number of people on Earth had shrunk by billions, so that those making up humanity hovered around a million, I still wouldn’t have the necessary information to make the judgment in a responsible way.

      So why the misanthropy? Not every moment is a Cold Light Of The Day moment for me. Mood-regulation is a bitch and I fall short. Hasty generalizations have a way of dominating my (pre-analytical) thinking (feeling?) about “what most people are like” and there are zero signs of that vanishing in the moment-to-moment sense. I make inferences and don’t put them to the test (because time-management, and because I don’t have the tools for subjecting inferences to rigorous testing anyway), and I’m not bothered by it. Misanthropy is not a policy recommendation. It’s a self-indulgent habit of thought/attitude. Self-indulgence is fine.

      But standard virtue-focused theories elevate moral agents’ internalistic attitudes in ways such that misanthropy might as well be a shaper of policy (or something external). So they would deduct *something* from me, or the fully cautious misanthrope, for being unbothered by our misanthropy.

      Wish I saved bits from this as I suffered through it: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ethics-virtue/

      It’s only hyperlinked in the post, since I was taking too long to write/finish it, and because you’re not here to defend standard virtue ethics. But I’m curious, if anything there resonates with you. I’ve read ¾ of it and it’s sitting at “nothing” so far.

      Here’s one right at the top, motivating a “Need I say more?” from me:

      “This is not to say that only virtue ethicists attend to virtues, any more than it is to say that only consequentialists attend to consequences or only deontologists to rules. Each of the above-mentioned approaches can make room for virtues, consequences, and rules. Indeed, any plausible normative ethical theory will have something to say about all three. What distinguishes virtue ethics from consequentialism or deontology is the centrality of virtue within the theory”

      Textbook cart-before-the-horse thinking on ethics. Dangerous if granted normative force.

      Example: https://www.vox.com/podcasts/2019/12/10/21002589/the-ezra-klein-show-mike-schur-the-good-place-moral-philossophy

      At around the halfway mark, they begin to discuss how the show took an aretaic turn. They explain the wisdom behind the decision. You might think that entails: Showrunners grasped some major flaw with non-aretaic moral theories, and here it is! Not at all, they just mistook genuine puzzles over decision-procedures for flaws with the theory’s first-order characteristics. [1/?]

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    6. [2/?]

      Characters ran into absurdities with their attempts to follow decision-procedures presented as belonging to non-aretaic theories. But most deontologists, and virtually all consequentialists, do not subscribe to their respective theory because of its decision-theoretical potential appearing promising. It is generally understood that theory itself has nothing to say about moral know-how. The moral theory's advocate can say something about that, but whether or not he chooses to do so would neither add to or subtract from what he has said about his moral theory being superior to all other theories.

      But moral know-how is indeed what dominates the pros and cons of the theories themselves, as depicted by the show. So we finally have a popular piece of fiction where moral philosophy is front and center, and the basics are fumbled because virtue ethics so enthusiastically blurs the lines between practical wisdom and normative force. And that’s annoying to me. Punch-holes-through-walls levels of annoying.

      “unless contempt is the only attitude you ever have towards humans, which I'm sure you don't.”

      You’re right, I don’t. But suppose I did, even against all evidence, because of something innate that causes me to be repulsed by humans. But I still never act on this repulsion, or form different moral beliefs as a result of this repulsion. Why would it matter enough to deduct something from me morally?

      Suppose further that I hyper-extended this attitude beyond the non-propositional domain and over to the propositional; believing as a factual matter that “Humans suck. All humans!” but still never mistreating anybody, given some other convictions I happen to have (i.e. free-will skepticism / anti-desert / opposition to all thick accounts of moral responsibility / strict egalitarianism). In this case, I would be struggling with a clear epistemic defect (believing factually that all human suck, without a shred of evidence to back it up, and not caring that it’s an unjustified belief), but still not a moral defect.

      If a belief like this, in a context like this, is ever supposed to entail both an epistemic defect and a moral one, well then virtue ethicists might as well stop using “moral” and “epistemic” distinctly in many other contexts where they insist the distinctions hold (because it wouldn't hold, and much of everything else starts looking incoherent).

      “You can (and in many cases should) have conflicting attitudes about the same thing, because many things are multifaceted”

      Words like “Ambivalence” and “Conflicting” (in the sense you mean here) are nowhere to be found when you search for them in the above SEP article. Imagine that.

      “TLDR: An attitude is virtuous iff it is a fitting attiude to have towards its object”

      What is the average lifetime-non-offending pedophile’s attitude toward minors? It is a very icky attitude no doubt, and one can picture fittingness here calling for a conversion-therapy style cleansing of the agent’s desires/fantasies. And if the (unsolicited) recipient of aberrant yearnings puts in next-to-no effort to eliminate them, because he doesn’t care about fittingness as such, does the lingering icky attitude he continues having toward minors go from merely non-virtuous to something vicious or similarly non-neutral?

      If it’s easier, substitute “pedo” who doesn’t offend over a lifetime for a “regular pervert” who doesn’t offend over a lifetime. So it’s an adult who, in every interaction with another adult they find attractive, even in professional settings, turns the ordeal into a filth-fest within the recesses of his mind. And revels in doing so.

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    7. {3/?]

      Now suppose the perv has one confidant; a BFF of sorts, with whom he shares all this. They’ve been sharing for decades, and no friction arose from any of it. But then the confidant stumbles upon Virtue Ethics literature. If anything, it would be unethical for the confidant to, after reading everything that’s ever been written on Virtue Ethics and being impressed by it, start to pressure the unsolicited recipient of aberrant yearnings to reduce or entirely wipe out the fantasies, in the name of “professional attitude fittingness” or some such drivel.

      Don’t see how any of it can matter morally, even though it can matter non-morally in various ways.

      “you're pretty fucking virtuous, as far as I can tell”

      Thanks (again) but I must (again) draw attention to my short fuse and impatience and dislike of things/people I’m not adequately familiar with. Recall that I allow myself the indulgence of wishing great harm on antagonistic arguers who refuse to grant some point I’ve spent a long time and put in much effort trying to make clear to them. I wouldn’t actually push a button that harms them, in reflective equilibrium. Mid argument, if it’s a particularly tedious argument, and the harm is not that severe, who knows; I might not be so perfectly benign. Our recent conversations about all this have caused me to pay closer attention to my thoughts moment to moment, and you know, I might actually be worse in this sense of act-regulation (not mere mood-regulation) than the stipulative non-offenders I invoked above. But I’ve sidetracked by this point anyway (as what I might do, or what types of buttons I might push under very tedious conditions, would be scouted by telic or deontic concerns anyway).

      “I dare you. What contemptible things do you love/tolerate, and what admirable things do you loathe?”

      Stumped at the moment. Does fiction count? If not, I’ll need to think about it some more. There has to be something I’m not recalling. But fiction wise, I rooted for Walter White and Jesse Pinkman throughout all 5 seasons of Breaking Bad, and found their (non-criminal) enemies contemptibly preachy. Maybe that’s a tricky one, because while I hate cartels and drug-dealers, I also really hate the War On Drugs, and so could never sympathize with Walt’s brother-in-law for “just doing his job”.

      But maybe I’d have rooted for Walt & Jesse even if they were decisively in the wrong in all ideal legal frameworks too, and would do so simply because the actors playing their rivals were less likable than them. And so, it stands to reason that I’ve allowed this sort of thing to disorient me at least a handful of times IRL. Not so much the “superficial charm” thing people are taken in by, but if someone is especially funny, I can see myself rooting for them and against their target, namely if their target is humorless, but still has a sensible grievance about being bullied for no good reason. It’d be great if we could be tested for this annually. I suspect that the older I’d get, the less likely I’d be to side with the hilarious bully. (But also: I don’t recall ever siding with anyone who physically bullied others. It would have to be verbal only, with peak humorlessness in the victim making it irresistible. Even then, it’s kinda contemptible on reflection, but I did it well into my early 20s).

      You linked to the reasons/values paper, which I mentioned to you before that I started and didn’t finish, but then you replied and said you no longer stand by the paper. So… is there a point you made in that paper that sheds light on a disagreement we have here?

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    8. “The decision to cheat is the necessary and sufficient condition for having cheated”

      You can look at that as a pure thought gone morally awry. Obviously I would agree with you entirely in that case, but that’s not the standard for thought crimes I was entertaining in my post from 2017. Not going to trace the post now for direct quotes/sentences, but it was about the differences between offense-causing and offense-thinking. Yeah, seems the whole thing being centered around the very notion of “offense” in reference to offense-taking did more argumentative work for me than the pure-thought vs. thought-plus demarcation I was operating under at the time. And for the scenario you put forth, I’ll just double-down on my earlier point about any halfway decent telic or deontic theory having the would-be cheater in plain view, and dishing out blame accordingly.

      By the standard you invoke, in response to my going after thought crimes of the offense variety, it leaves the impression that the idea of Alice being morally defective in the following scenario would seem controversial to me:

      Alice makes the decision to murder Bob because he roots for the away team. As a fanatical supporter of the home team, this angers Alice like nothing else. She has made up her mind and is on her way, but doesn’t end up committing the murder merely because Charles murdered Bob minutes before Alice got to him. Despite being on her way, Alice technically only ever thought about carrying out the act. Alice is not a murderer.

      Well, I believe there’s nothing controversial about it; Alice is morally defective for her part in this. In fact, if she was literally minutes away from Bob, with gun in hand, I would add that she poses a threat that's legally actionable. She is unfit for civil society. Of course, prosecutors in the real world can scarcely obtain the information we're playing with here, and taking for granted, so that’s why the law has to function differently than in my scenario (where prosecutors would have access to such info, perhaps).

      Pretty sure I have more to respond to, but I’ll have to continue at another time. This just takes damn too long to put together, and blogger’s comment box/space is awful/tiny. And having to keep splitting comments is killing me. Ruins their flow too.

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    9. [1/2]
      If your "virtue" (technical/moral/philosophical) and my "virtue" (basic, common sense human decency) are as distinct as you claim, then we've probably been talking past one another. I don't care about any character trait that doesn't affect someone's being a decent/rotten person by (mostly) conventional standards, with a few of my quirky additions and subtractions here and there. I would probably consider the kind of "virtue" that you're attacking to be synonymous with sanctity or purity. Things like "turn the other cheek" and "always be positive" would fall under that category, as would "don't have perverted thoughts", "respect authority", "respect everyone", "be loyal to your family", etc. Those aren't virtues in my book. So the semantic dispute should be put aside.

      But still, I can't just stop morally judging or praising people based simply on their attitudes, and moreover, I don't feel like I should! I'd be curious if you can, and if you think you should. It's crystal clear to me that e.g. a radfem who thinks that "all men are trash" is a cunt, simply in virtue of that attitude, even if she never harms a single man. But if you're right that attitude alone is morally impotent, then my strong moral revultion towards assholes like that is simply a mistake. But unlike many other candidates for being moral mistakes (repulsion regarding unorthodox perversions, incest, and even acts of pedophilia and bestiality), this one doesn't seem to fluctuate with additional information. The attitude alone (combined with the empirical fact that not all men are trash) is what justifies the moral judgment.

      If you genuinely and consistently believed that "all humans suck", it would probably lower my opinion of you as well. For one, such a universal hatred would apply to me and people I respect and care about, so why wouldn't I have a lower opinion of someone for despising me and those I respect/care about? That said, it would take quite a few bad attitudes like that to make me categorize you as an indecent person all things considered, since I think you have a bunch of redeeming qualities that would easily make up for even the worst misanthropy. But yeah, I'm quite comfortable saying that a 100% misanthropy would be a pro tanto reason to move you in that direction in my eyes.

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    10. [2/2]
      Re: the confidant/BFF point. Being someone's confidant/BFF is a huge privilege/entitlement, because they give you exclusive access to their vulnerabilities and deep facts hidden from other people. For that reason, I think that bffhood should come with extra responsibilities. One of them is obviously to not disclose their secrets, unless they pose any danger to other people. But another might be to exercise extra leniency and understanding towards their flaws. So even if you think someone's fantasies are deeply disturbing and wrong, you might just decide to accept them for who they are, in return for their being honest, open, and putting trust in you. That does some of the work explaining why pressuring a sick pervert BFF to stop being a sick pervert comes off as unethical. Yet another is that it's probably useless and harmful: you don't just get rid of your fetish once you're convinced that it's wrong: even if you're successfully convinced, you'll probably be just as sick and perverted as before, but also feel ashamed and guilty on top of that. Finally, there are other reasons to think why not just attitudes but actual acts of perversions (including controversial things like bestiality and pedophilia) may be permissible. I think I mentioned it once, but I don't think these things are absolutely and inherently wrong. Consent is not as straightforward as some people think. And if it was as simple as 18+ or 16+ or 14+ or any other (largely) arbitrary number, it would rule out a slew of other things that are routinely done to kids and animals without a second thought. A better example would be something unambiguously bad like torture, rape, or murder. Maybe in that case I'd suggest to my BFF that it's somewhat unhealthy... After all, I do think it's unhealthy, so I'd just be telling them the truth. But this was a good point, and yeah - the fact that it's purely an attitude is also a reason against blame and conversion attempts even in the worst kinds of attitudes.

      I might read the SEP entry at some point, but from what you said and referenced, I'd probably agree that it's a bunch of garbage. But I want to press you for the last time on the thing I'm actually interested in: pick your favorite standard for basic attitudinal decency (and I'm sure you judge people for their attitudes -- who doesn't?). Would you still insist that none of that should have a place in morality?

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    11. There’s the silent all-men-are-trash dogmatist, and the outspoken all-men-are-trash dogmatist. The former will not intrude on you or anyone else with their nonsense, for as long as they choose to stay taciturn about it, which they may choose for wise reasons or for purely personal ones. This space includes everything from lack of confidence in the belief (yay) to plain shyness (meh). If they contribute nothing to public discourse throughout their whole life, my ruling would be “epistemic mistake” and no further.

      Outspoken types can be very annoying, even when they never persuade anyone who isn’t already in the choir. This is because they don’t fret about the possibility of going viral and polluting (ahem; further polluting) the hard-fought sensible aspects of gender discourse with their basic ass mistakes.

      Evidently you’ve been exposed to this type of inflammatory content. You’re aware of it enough to have been annoyed by it, which means you’ve been minimally wronged by those content creators. Making decent people facepalm is not good. Hence the missionary “boo men” believer misfires epistemically and ethically.

      “I can't just stop morally judging or praising people based simply on their attitudes”

      Your knowing about their attitudes is evidence that they’re not *just* attitudes. They’re shared attitudes; the result of a decision. To share or not to share? Anytime we learn about someone’s attitude, we also get to confirm that it’s been acted on.

      I think we just disagree over the degree to which epistemic vices need to be walled off from unethical stuff. A thought can be unethical, but its falseness (factual or other) doesn’t contribute to that, even when the error touches on the humanity of a group or person.

      RE: Attitudinal decency: I’d just pick “match my own attitude” baselines, since I can picture this decreasing social friction or awkwardness in my life. Maybe that’s more vanity than a genuine concern for cohesion on my part, but that's the extent of it.

      Unrelated: Might a single virtue ethicist have something sensible to say on Dirty Hands?

      https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/dirty-hands/

      It struck me as odd that, for such a long entry, there was nothing in the way of “and now for the aretaic take” in it. There was talk of standard and modified deontology and consequentialism and how they figure into DH. But that’s it. This being the most interesting part of moral philosophy for me, the total lack of virtue talk speaks volumes.

      “cunt”

      I will cancel you to the depths of hell if you don’t wash your mouth and keyboard out with soap right this minute mister.

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    12. [1/2]
      I thought this thread was winding down, but I ended up writing 2 new arguments and 1 important clarification. First, the arguments:

      A1. If pure attitude is normatively inefficatious when it comes to ethics, why isn't it also normatively inefficatious when it comes to epistemology? You say that any belief is fine as long as it doesn't manifest. However, if your belief that e.g. the Earth is flat, or that creationism is true, or that 2+2=5 is not manifesting itself as acts or consequences (and suppose it doesn't), then by your logic, you can be free to believe whatever the hell you want, no matter how wrong, irrational, stupid, unreasoned, etc. And if your moral score doesn't suffer from immoral beliefs alone, your epistemic score doesn't suffer from unjustified and dumb beliefs alone, right? If there are no genuine moral virtues/vices or successes/mistakes that are purely attitudinal, neither are there epistemic virtues/vices or epistemic successes/mistakes that are purely attitudinal. If you have no obligation to not hold morally repugnant views, why are you under any obligation to seek truth or consistency or follow evidence? It's all in your mind, after all, so feel free to be as retarded as you want! The normativity is analogous in both cases. You seem to reject one (moral aretaic normativity) but accept the other (epistemic aretaic normativity). I don't think you have grounds to do that.

      One way out of this is to bite the bullet and sacrifice epistemic normativity, which will surely retain consistency, but leave you with measely "naturalized epistemology" -- the boring science about how humans actually form beliefs. You've just killed Epistemology and replaced it with psychology (the inconsistent capitalization is intentional). Yawn.

      The other (and obviously superior) solution is to agree with me that attitudes can be normatively charged in both cases: ethical and epistemic. You already believe there exist epistemic mistakes that don't impact the external world - you brought one up in your previous reply. And since they're mistakes, they by definition shouldn't be made, to the extent they're mistakes. Why not agree that, similarly, some moral beliefs are better/worse than others, should/shouldn't be held, and make us better/worse people?

      A2. Speaking of epistemic mistakes... Epistemic blame/praise and moral blame/praise feel very different to me. Take the worst epistemic offender you can think of, and compare it with the most morally repugnant attitude you can think of. Neither attitude/belief should be held (at least in my opinion), but there is a particular outrage and revulsion regarding the moral attitude that is largely absent from the epistemic counterpart. Epistemic attitudinal mistakes merit disappointment, pity, and ridicule. Moral attitudinal mistakes merit disgust, recoilment, and indignation.

      But you can't make sense of this disparate nature of our reactive attitudes, if you exclude ethics from the mental realm, the way you do, and only accept epistemology (which you can't consistently do anyway, because A1).

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      C1. "You’re aware of it enough to have been annoyed by it, which means you’ve been minimally wronged by those content creators. Making decent people facepalm is not good."
      If you're unswayed by (or can refute) A1 and A2, I'll grudgingly accept that your problem with bad people is exclusively their impact on you and others. I mean it's difficult to agree to disagree, but perhaps this is an irresolvable disagreement, and we just react differently to this subset of problems. But I know my psyche and that's not my only problem with them... and if the impact is mere annoyance and facepalming, that's not even the biggest problem! Not by far.

      Exposure to the misandrist surely signals that I (and other decent people exposed to that word vomit) have been wronged to some extent, but(!) the exposure itself is just the tip of the iceberg. I don't immediately think "goddammit, if only this person just kept quiet about her misandry, and acted nice towards me, she would've been perfectly decent and a lovely member of society, or even cool to hang out with... but by opening her mouth and spewing disgusting things (that were already in her mind) she suddenly spoiled everything!" No. What's really annoying is that she had those things in her mind in the first place. Exposure conveys wrongness more than it causes it.

      That's how I would feel if I found out someone had been lying to me. I wouldn't think "oh no, I was so wronged by finding out... I wish they kept quiet and made sure to be extra careful that I didn't notice their lies". Being exposed to moral awfulness is not pleasant, I agree, but it's nowhere near as wrongful as the fact they were lying to me this whole time itself. That whole time it was purely in their mind, unimpactful, but still very wrong.

      P.S. The scenario is somewhat unrealistic, as the impact of such content would almost surely extend beyond mere annoyance, facepalming, etc. of the unfortunate martyrs exposed to the cancer. Larger audiences imply that someone will be discriminated against, or ignored, or isolated, etc. and you're right that it takes us a number of steps back on gender discourse. So for most attitudes, their impact would almost certainly outweigh the score of the attitude itself. I'm just arguing that the score is non-zero in some circumstances.

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    14. “You say that any belief is fine as long as it doesn't manifest”

      Alice the would-be murderer = me pointing to a scenario where a belief or intent or attitude doesn’t lead to an act, but is easily morally noteworthy. And condemnable.

      I see the silent misandrist case as constitutively different. One thing I’ve had to reckon with, to your credit, is that it’s probably for the better that the folk lose the plot on this where I manage to keep it, and to treat the (hypothetical) silent misandrist as theoretically being just-as-bad as the vocal ones. This is for purely contingent reasons, and I can spell those out if needed.

      For me though, in many of those cases, the acted vs. unacted division is paramount, since the belief “men are trash” does not by itself predispose the misandrist to also believe that men are unworthy of moral consideration, or that they’re less worthy of it compared to women/non-men/others. I’m not implying that misandry alone can never move the needle all the way to “men are not moral patients; kill them or harm them or don’t help them, if you can get away with it”. In the (relatively few?) cases when misandry does enkindle this bonus, the misandrist would be as morally deranged as Alice was in the sports fanatic scenario. Alice’s moral problem had nothing to do with her home-team-fanaticism. It had everything to do with her disregard of Bob’s moral standing.

      If you disagree and insist that, in each case, this is what misandry proper entails, that’s a less interesting dispute to have. I should’ve figured that this was the actual place where I needed to take my initial counter-objection towards, because now it might look like I’m walking back my “silent vs. outspoken” emphasis. I maintain that such emphasis is important too, just not nearly as important as how we answer the question “does this person believe that some class of sentient beings are morally worthless?”.

      Suppose my misanthropy was stronger and that it covered all people; I’d still include all those people into my circle of moral concern, because I’d plausibly still have reasons to favor moral impartiality / ideal observer theories. So I don’t see why other misanthropes (who [at least in some cases] are just equal-opportunity sexists who don’t mind commingling their misogyny/misandry) would be incapable of developing the same temperamental take as a distinctly non-moral view. And just for good measure, I posit that this is likelier to be the case when the attitudinal misandrist is silent.

      In my last round of replies I wrote “meh” when I invoked the possibility of them just being too darn shy to go public with their misandry. That would suggest a latent desire to politicize the attitude, with an incidental lack of ability to do so, which in turn suggests a latent belief (atop the attitude) that men as a class need to suffer or pay for past crimes (or something). And that’s morally scannable; act or no act. I also wrote “yay” for the believer who doesn’t go public due to feelings of doubt surrounding the accuracy of their belief. On reflection, the yay is best used for the misandrist whose misandry mirrors my misanthropy (even if I had been misanthropic in the fullest sense, to round things out and make the analogy neat and clean).

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    15. Benevolent misogynists want to revive chivalrous codes because they believe women are naturally too delicate or docile to do much for themselves. This doesn’t spell “women are morally irrelevant”. Quite the contrary. And it’s not unethical, it’s just dumb. I see “men are trash” as occupying roughly the same kind of factually-steered dumbness.

      But what if I’m the one who’s factually mistaken? One way to show that most (all?) misandrists discount the interests of men on an absolute, non-positional level (all else being equal) is to find stats showing that desert plays a major role in their moral theory (or moral psychology, for the theoretically disinclined). Maybe desert isn’t just a “major role” for them, maybe they’re monists and it's everything. Certainly the combo view “men suck, they’re dangerous” + “it’s not my fault they’re the way they are, it’s just empirically true” + “dangerous or sucky people choose to be that way” + “people who choose to be that way disqualify themselves from being included in my moral considerations” = morally wrong attitude.

      But remove the 3rd & 4th quoted bits, or hell even just the 4th one, and replace them with “all people are equally worthy of my moral consideration, even the broken ones, no matter the source of their brokenness” then the issue truly would be just with their empirical falsity / poor standards of evidence for what men-the-group are really like. If the poor standards are a product of motivated reasoning, which it itself a product of their predilection to despise men, then we’ve got a chicken vs. egg problem on our hands. But if it’s a non-prejudicial form of cognitive bias at work, and that’s really all there is in explaining why they believe dogmatically, I see no room for moral impugning.

      The Epistemic vs. The Moral – Some preliminary objections:

      Morality: The world being as wretched as it is, as it always was, and probably as it will remain; there are strong reasons to have morality’s role designated in ways to make it an entirely functionalist ordeal. Ethics is a “job to be done” and it’s nowhere near done, no matter how well it’s being done by any given saintly moral agent. Unfathomable suffering imposes certain kinds of moral motives and refined intuitions that, if the circumstances call for it, turn the moral agent / suffering-reducer into a total slave to the whims of Game Theory.

      With non-moral beliefs, in this case epistemic beliefs – facts, truth and justification – this is not so. It doesn’t matter how much false belief or unjustified belief manifests at any given time in the world; it doesn’t provide any epistemic agent with reasons to be a slave to game-theoretic calculations and to the countless Dirty Hands programs that would necessarily follow (DH, the epistemic version, is more than conceivable). Regardless of how often or how badly truth gets perverted by untruth; there is no sense of urgency, nothing to resolve; nothing to restore. There is only the cognizer; the aspiring knower, and this person’s ability/inability to sift through the lies, omissions and oversimplifications that can overwhelm from external sources, and cognitive biases and limitation that overwhelm internally.

      Morality’s relation to intrinsic goods/bads renders final value/disvalue an aggregative property (at least to a point). Epistemology’s relation to value/disvalue doesn’t do this. I don’t see how it could. Deceive oneself so as to undeceive the world? Sci-fi aside, people/cognizers cannot deceive themselves. We can try, but it scarcely ever works out it is deliberately attempted. When it works, it’s not because we sought it out. Seeking it out in this context = due to some higher, agent-neutral epistemic aim in mind; like reducing aggregative untruth or aggregate non-justified beliefs.

      Once those aims are shown to be implausible and are removed, we turn our attention to each individual’s epistemic faculties (internal).

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    16. Finally, for the sake of minimal courtesy, I should announce the following; As far as your “epistemic/moral continuity” points go, I am replying by memory of what you wrote when I first read your comments a few days ago. I will reread them at some point, hopefully sooner than later. For now, I didn’t comb over any of it from scratch. This is why I didn’t quote anything from you as I replied to “it”. Regretfully, I am struggling to find the willpower to reread your take on this. Having read it once, it took numerous attempts for me to get from A to Z without stopping to begin writing back. Even though you didn't go on for very long at all, subjectively, reading the comment was too much of a demoralizing experience, not because you raised outlandish concerns or anything, but because this has become a massive issue for me and your perspective drives home just how far from obvious it is. As such, I’m having uncharacteristically crippling issues with my attempts to get a handle on it, or to even reread it. These are my shortfalls. It’s very hard to pay attention, sentence after sentence, and absorb every point you had in mind, when I just want to go off on a single sentence and not look back, and when I know there are reasons for the moral vs. epistemic value discontinuity that (i) Cannot be explained adequately in a few comments, or worse (ii) Cannot be put into words well enough by me at this stage. I need to devote serious time to this – zero distractions, zero worries over work or hobby-related time constraints – to have any hope of getting what’s inside my head into halfway intelligible ink.

      So if you’re dissatisfied with the 2nd half of my reply, as you probably should be, know that I’m not lost on the fact that I’ve not dissected your feedback like an ideal interlocutor would have done. I’m not able to do up an “organized” point-by-point reply if I fixate on every relevant piece of a point. After I read everything the first time, I was left feeling paralyzed in not knowing where to start, and it’s definitely a bad idea for me to tempt myself to overcome that with a second reading, because I fear that I’ll just devote the next few days to writing a blog post on this (and I can’t do that for a few reasons, one of which is I’ve got videos from back in November that I really need to start editing and/or finish recording. [Yes, I should never be a professional philosopher who writes books responding to other philosophers’ books. The proper-response-process would take over my entire life and destroy me psychologically]).

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  3. Here's a treat for you: a decent defense of idleness in a 58 minute podcast. It cuts thru a lot of my views and overlaps with some of our disagreements above and elsewhere. I like it, but I'm not sure I'm on board 100% of the way. If other-regarding ethical considerations are put aside, I definitely agree that we're justified to be idle most (51%-99%) of our lives, if that's what we wish to do. But I'm probably not ready to accept that a 100% idle life is justified, and by extension that there are no genuine non-ethical and non-preference based reasons to develop oneself. But I recognize that I have the burden to argue it, and that the default is "no duties to oneself", which I believe is your position.

    https://newbooksnetwork.com/brian-oconnor-idleness-a-philosophical-essay-princeton-up-2018/

    Since I'm already here, I might as well clarify something. I interpreted the "men are trash" attitude as equivalent to "men are less/not worthy of moral consideration". But now that you pointed out the difference, I have to agree that only the latter is blameworthy. This realization - that hatred doesn't automatically imply a belief in a lesser moral status - is quite profound for me. I knew there was something off with fearmongering about "hate" as such, but I never put my finger on why it bothered me. So thanks for spelling it out. I'm kind of disappointed in myself for not seeing it sooner, given that my belief that certain animals are disgusting/dangerous/creepy doesn't make me think their suffering is any less important than that of cute/friendly/safe animals.

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